The Taliban are in Oakland, California

[SkyPiggie 0]

News:

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Yusuf Bey’s Oakland Black Muslims occupy a special place in the city’s imagination. From their headquarters at Your Black Muslim Bakery on San Pablo Avenue, Bey and his numerous “spiritually adopted” sons have spent thirty years projecting an image of upright, disciplined self-reliance, reforming ex-cons and building businesses. Bey has nurtured a sense of pride and self-respect among his followers — a commodity that often seems in short supply in Oakland.

Some say they offer hope to the hopeless; others call them racists and reactionaries -- albeit rarely to their faces. Dark rumors of their propensity for violence and menace have always hovered in the margins of city lore, but this only seems to enhance their street credibility. Got a problem the cops can't solve? The Black Muslims will get it done. Drug dealing in the neighborhood? A couple of bow-tied enforcers will take care of business.

But there's another side to the Beys...

Stories:

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0732,thompson,77423,2.html

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/story.aspx?530121b3-f5da-4d1b-8b00-80bed922de2a

These muslim thugs are nothing more than an organized criminal gang. And now they've murdered a journalist, simply becaue they didn't like the story he was writing. How long will Oakland tolerate these muslim "moral" crusaders, and their attempts to enforce by force, their own muslim morality on an American city?

Put it down now, or prepare to accept more of this kind of activity, in your own home town...

[Zipp0 1]

So basically, if 4 black dudes in bow ties show up at your door, don't even think about opening it, and load your shotgun.

It sounds to me like a failure of law enforcement and inept prosecutors.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[lawrocket 3]

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These muslim thugs are nothing more than an organized criminal gang.

Which pretty much describes ANY group like that. Black Panthers? A criminal enterprise. White Aryan Resistance? A criminal enterprise.

Things like this are about power - power in groups. The easiest way to recruit is to make enemies. The group grows. The power grows. Anyone standing in the way must be neutralized, lest the power be diminished.

It's the way it has been and WILL be.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

Let's use the wayback machine to change the last two paragraphs to the language of the 1950's:

"These black thugs are nothing more than an organized criminal gang. And now they've murdered a journalist, simply because they didn't like the story he was writing. How long will Oakland tolerate these black crusaders, and their attempts to enforce by force, their own shiftless black ways on an American city?

Put those blacks down now, or prepare to accept more of this kind of activity, in your own neighborhoods . . ."

Of course, such a statement today would be considered bigoted - but it is now more politically correct to apply such language to muslims.

[kelpdiver 2]

So what exactly was the connection to the Taliban? You realize the members of the Black Muslim Bakery are black, right?

But yeah, they drifted from racists with baked goods to something else in recent years. The big step up was when they started harassing and assaulting liquor stores for selling liquor. Murder is an even bigger step up, though I think to call the bakery "organized" would be a reach.

[rehmwa 2]

Let's twist it again. The below is perfectly acceptable in today's PC world (it's still wrong also).

"These rednecks are nothing more than an organized criminal gang. And now they've murdered a young boy, simply because they didn't like him stealing a couple bucks from the local store. How long will Mayberry tolerate these redneck crusaders, and their attempts to enforce by force, their own shiftless ways on an American city?"

or

"These environmentalists are nothing more than an organized criminal gang. And now they've murdered a lumberjack, simply because they didn't like his job. How long will Seattle tolerate these vigilantes, and their attempts to enforce by force, their own shiftless ways on an American city?"

Vigilantism is wrong, no matter what group does it. Or even if the group is a perfectly allocated mix of local citizens' (arbitrary cosmetic group definitions)

I think trying to play whatever equivalence to a race card in these situations is more bigotted than anything else.

Would you defend these above examples just as zealously? What if it were yuppie sons of rich white parents who formed a posse and went out and tried to right wrongs instead of calling the cops and using the system? Would that be more PC?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[warpedskydiver 0]

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So basically, if 4 black dudes in bow ties show up at your door, don't even think about opening it, and load your shotgun.

It sounds to me like a failure of law enforcement and inept prosecutors.

WTF is wrong with you?

If the shotgun is not already loaded you are not going to be using it.

[NCclimber 0]

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Let's use the wayback machine to change the last two paragraphs to the language of the 1950's:

"These black thugs are nothing more than an organized criminal gang. And now they've murdered a journalist, simply because they didn't like the story he was writing. How long will Oakland tolerate these black crusaders, and their attempts to enforce by force, their own shiftless black ways on an American city?

Put those blacks down now, or prepare to accept more of this kind of activity, in your own neighborhoods . . ."

Of course, such a statement today would be considered bigoted - but it is now more politically correct to apply such language to muslims.

What a lovely comparison...

but what do you think of people associated with "Your Black Muslim Bakery"?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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The Taliban are in Oakland, California

Taliban Pizza! May I take your order please?

Speed Racer
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[JohnRich 4]

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Taliban Pizza! May I take your order please?

"I'd like a medium pizza with sausage and bacon, please."

Re: "Put those blacks down now, or prepare to accept more of this kind of activity, in your own neighborhoods . . . Of course, such a statement today would be considered bigoted - but it is now more politically correct to apply such language to muslims."

In this case, the problem is the violence, which is motivated by their muslim beliefs. Not just because of their personal religious preference. That's a big difference. I don't think anyone has a problem with peaceful muslims.

Re: "connection to the Taliban?"
It seems to me they are like the "Taliban" because they are using violence to enforce their own moral code on everyone else.

"Whaddaya mean you don't have no pork toppings?"

[kelpdiver 2]

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In this case, the problem is the violence, which is motivated by their muslim beliefs. Not just because of their personal religious preference. That's a big difference. I don't think anyone has a problem with peaceful muslims.

Re: "connection to the Taliban?"
It seems to me they are like the "Taliban" because they are using violence to enforce their own moral code on everyone else.

This is really a case of people reading headlines and making sweeping conclusions about local matters in which they have no familiarity.

[rehmwa 2]

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This is really a case of people reading headlines and making sweeping conclusions about local matters in which they have no familiarity.

No kidding....

That's what I did. It's all the info we have available.

so..based on the headlines and nothing else (and for any scenario that fits that description)


IF this is a case of vigilante activity,...
EVEN considering if their motivation is religious, hunger, or based on EGGO envy.....
THEN, I think they are bunch of criminals that shoud be stopped.....
AND, I don't care if they are white environmentalist boy scouts from Mayberry, I still have the same position

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,120]

>In this case, the problem is the violence, which is motivated by their muslim beliefs.

In the 50's, the problems were ascribed to the inherent laziness and criminality of blacks - and those people were just as right as you are.

>I don't think anyone has a problem with peaceful muslims.

Nor do most people have problems with peaceful blacks, whites, christians or gays. Would you really treat a muslim murderer differently than a black murderer, and both of them differently than a white murderer? In all three cases, their color/religion has nothing to do with it. Their crime does.

Today people are attempting to link islam with terrorism just as people in the 50's linked color to crime and laziness. Generally this gets done to accomplish political ends. In the 50's it was to prevent interracial marriages, keep schools segregated and prevent blacks from gaining political power. Today it is to justify political policies in the Middle East.

In the end, though, all that really matters is the crime. I hope we can keep this in mind.

[NCclimber 0]

Of course, when thugs (like these guys) link their identity to a particular faith or group, it does strengthen those negative stereotypes.

[billvon 3,120]

>it does strengthen those negative stereotypes.

Yes, it does. Same goes for black and hispanic gangs, italian organized crime lords etc. It takes a certain modicum of intelligence to be able to see the difference between a stereotype and reality, but it is a level of intelligence that most people usually possess.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Today people are attempting to link islam with terrorism just as people in the 50's linked color to crime and laziness.

In the context of this thread, that statement is HUGELY overgeneralized. JR said - "the actions were motivated by the muslim beliefs". That is a stretch. their actions were 'rationalized using their beliefs in an inappropriate way' - zealotry is like that in all strong belief systems (look at enviro freaks, look at extreme anti-abortion zealots, etc)

I'd say that in this case, people are not 'linking islam with terrorism', but they might be linking a specific vigilante group's action to misapplication of islamic beliefs. In this case, the culprit is NOT islam, it's vigilantism. Islam is just the excuse these thugs are using. (but bigger stretches of logic have been used to accomplish zealot aims, heck, some people even think taxing the shit out of gasoline is going to improve carbon output. Some people think that taxing the hell out of taxpayers will make bridges suddenly stronger)

However, would you say that assuming 'beliefs' affect one's actions is a better assumption that one's 'cosmetic appearance' affects one's actions? Just in general since this topic comes up here at this point.

Who's more likely to stake trees in an attempt to kill lumberjacks? Enviromentlist? or Blacks? (comparing apples to horse shoes)

Comparing religion to race is a silly thing for you to do. That's why your analogy sucks.

If you want to understand "why" someone does something, you need to understand their belief system. That includes religion, amongst a ton of other things, environment, social status, psychology, etc. Knee jerking and stifling any discussion of any aspect of this mix is really thought police at its best.

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all that really matters is the crime.

Now that, at least has value more than just general preaching. Actions and individuals - that's what matters. The rest is just pseudo intellectual self gratification

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I hope we can keep this in mind.

apparently not

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,120]

>In the context of this thread, that statement is HUGELY overgeneralized.

Perhaps, but it is accurate. People argue that islam is the "religion of terror" and continually quote passages of the Koran to show that it is the religion, not the terrorist acts, that is the unifying factor.

>I'd say that in this case, people are not 'linking islam with terrorism' . . .

muslim thugs
muslim "moral" crusaders
enforce their own muslim morality

Although I agree with you literally. Crime, not terrorism, is the theme of this thread. The people who have related terrorism to islam have posted in other threads.

>would you say that assuming 'beliefs' affect one's actions is a better
>assumption that one's 'cosmetic appearance' affects one's actions?

a) Race is not a "cosmetic" issue; I suspect you just didn't think about that before posting it.

b) One's religious beliefs affect one's religious beliefs on a great many topics; one could argue that it is indeed a big part of their moral underpinning. However, their religion does not determine whether or not they will be terrorists.

Likewise, one's genetic makeup can indeed affect one's brain structure in a great many ways; one could argue that it is part of their inherent mental structure. Indeed, this argument was used in the past to prove that blacks were inherently shiftless based on their race. However, what race one's genes came from does not determine if they will be criminal or lazy.

>Comparing religion to race is a silly thing for you to do.

Why? In both cases, people use unsupportable justifications to prove that the religion/race is deficient in some way. Fortunately they usually fail in the long run.

[rehmwa 2]

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>religion does not determine whether or not they will be terrorists.

strawman with me - you're preaching to the choir. The point is someone with a vigilante bent will quickly use religion to justify their actions. It's very convenient. They are still in the wrong.

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Race is not a "cosmetic" issue; I suspect you just didn't think about that before posting it.

I do find race to be merely cosmetic. It only affects behavior in those that allow it to define them beyond their thoughts and actions. This has been very thoroughly thought through. Give these meaningless differences credence does lead one to racism. So just don't do it. That you 'choose' to not be and act color blind pertuates the problems.

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unsupportable justifications to prove that the religion/race is deficient in some way

another strawman - This is NOT about proving a religion is "deficient". Please stay on target, it's about some criminals. Why do the acts of some specific bad apples have to general some giant societal issue with you people?

1 - religion is a belief structure. It should be used to understand these vigilantes especially if they attack businesses like liquor stores, etc

2 - race is genetics, it is not a belief structure - apples and oranges - race and piddly genetic call outs like you quote does not drive people like the KKK, fear and anger and ignorance does. Calling out non-input things like Sickle Cell resistance, etc like you do sounds a lot like those rationalizers from the 50's you keep mentioning. Do you really think the differences from those things are even remotely significant when stacked up next to environment, belief systems, and education?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants