Gun Control?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

As for the electoral college not respecting the will of the people - that is not clear. Gore's popular vote lead mirrored very closely his lead in California, a state that Shrub didn't bother to campaign in. Likewise for New York, Illinois, and Massachusetts. Gore probably didn't waste time in Texas for the same reason. Each campaigned by the rules of the game. Change to a popular vote - they campaign differently and the vote outcome changes too.

The 2000 election results:

Gore: 50,999,897
Bush: 50,456,002

Gore won the poplular vote, so while there might be different campaign strategies if it were a popular vote election.....this election showed that the people wanted Al Gore as the president of this country.

WHOOSH!

Like I said, it showed nothing that you claim. If every vote counted to victory, the candidates and the non voters would behave differently. (And imo, mostly for the worse) The polling just prior gave Bush a 1 pt edge. It was effectively a dead heat and could easily have had the opposite result - Gore wins EC, Bush wins popular vote.

Sorry - not going to bother with youtube videos at work. Or ever, really - I prefer more sound sources.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

No, I'm not whining regarding the Gore vs. Bush election. While that election is one of the two where the electoral college has caused a "false outcome" where the popular vote was won by the person chosen loser by the electoral college votes...the other being Benjamin Harrison and Grover Cleveland in 1888. And there's also the 1876 election of Rutherford B. Hayes vs Samuel J. Tilden which showed how easily the electoral college can be manipulated....which also seems strangely familiar to the Gore vs Bush election oddly.

And yes regardless of the outcome, I would like to see the people get the president that they wanted.THEY DID

It would make no point making any change retro-active....."Oh by the way Mr. Gore you've been president for the last 2 terms...congratulations".........and I wouldn't expect it to happen. No sense crying over spilled milk. Put we should learn from our mistakes and progress.

Quote

"False Outcome"??

oh cripes - they played by the rules and that's the outcome not matter inpalatible it might be - albeit, Gore and Co tried to change rules part way through, but that's not your issue....

Had the situation been reversed, would you still have the same viewpoint and be arguing the issue? That's your test of fairness.

Further - Did either of your perceived elections have the outcome come into question due to the electoral college process? or something else? (1 one state's rule regarding validating of votes, and 2 various allegations of voter fraud and malpractice)

If this whole thing is just a big pile of sour grapes, then I really wish I'd have not even exchanged posts. Because the issue is whether a process that balances state's rights and effectiveness against individual person's voting effectiveness is worth retaining. If the best argument to change to popular vote ONLY (the current concept in cludes an aspect of popular vote AND state's rights) someone can put forth is logistics, then the concept will get approval by the grade school contingient. the rest of the thinking population will do better in review of the proposal.

That's worth talking about. Pissing and moaning about the other is a waste of bandwidth.

You do realize, that any potential change going forward isn't retroactive, don't you?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Gore won the poplular vote, the people didn't get the president they wanted......that pretty much proves that the electoral college doesn't work.

And once again, you need to do research so you can understand how the process actually works vs. how you THINK it should work.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sv3n 0]

Quote

As for the electoral college not respecting the will of the people - that is not clear.

The 2000 election results:
Gore: 50,999,897
Bush: 50,456,002

Who did the people want? That shows that the electoral college does not work and does not respect or convey the will of the people.

Quote

WHOOSH!

Like I said, it showed nothing that you claim. If every vote counted to victory, the candidates and the non voters would behave differently. (And imo, mostly for the worse) The polling just prior gave Bush a 1 pt edge. It was effectively a dead heat and could easily have had the opposite result - Gore wins EC, Bush wins popular vote.

The majority of the country wanted a president that did not win because of the electoral college. That proves exactly what I said.

Quote

Sorry - not going to bother with youtube videos at work. Or ever, really - I prefer more sound sources.

The work thing is understandable. I recommend watching it though, it's part of a documentary by Greg Palast. He does work for PBS and several other reputable outlets.

Here's an article you might also find interesting: http://www.gregpalast.com/silence-of-the-media-lambs-the-election-story-never-told/

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

Quote

I would like to see the people get the president that they wanted.

Quote

THEY DID

Oh, did they? You need to look at the results again. It's not funny, it's sad. Regardless of if you're republican, democratic, or independent, I'm sure that everyone can agree the people should get the president that actually won. I still don't get how people aren't upset by it........it sets and aweful precedent.


The 2000 election results:

Gore: 50,999,897
Bush: 50,456,002

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

I would like to see the people get the president that they wanted.

Quote

THEY DID

Oh, did they? You need to look at the results again. It's not funny, it's sad. Regardless of if you're republican, democratic, or independent, I'm sure that everyone can agree the people should get the president that actually won. I still don't get how people aren't upset by it........it sets and aweful precedent.


The 2000 election results:

Gore: 50,999,897
Bush: 50,456,002

Sorry, but under the rules and laws we have the correct man did win. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh, and the system worked exactly as designed and will continue to work for as far as either of us can see.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sv3n 0]

Quote

And once again, you need to do research so you can understand how the process actually works vs. how you THINK it should work.

It's as simple as this........the people vote and they get the president that the people want. It doesn't need to be any more complicated or involved than that. If the current system isn't doing that, then it needs to be changed. Two elections with "false" outcomes is two too many.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

And once again, you need to do research so you can understand how the process actually works vs. how you THINK it should work.

It's as simple as this........the people vote and they get the president that the people want. It doesn't need to be any more complicated or involved than that. If the current system isn't doing that, then it needs to be changed. Two elections with "false" outcomes is two too many.

Add some research on how the electoral college ACTUALLY works to your other assignments.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

And once again, you need to do research so you can understand how the process actually works vs. how you THINK it should work.

It's as simple as this........the people vote and they get the president that the people want. It doesn't need to be any more complicated or involved than that. If the current system isn't doing that, then it needs to be changed. Two elections with "false" outcomes is two too many.

Add some research on how the electoral college ACTUALLY works to your other assignments.

I wonder how "false" the election would have been had the person they wanted had won

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sv3n 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I would like to see the people get the president that they wanted.

Quote

THEY DID

Oh, did they? You need to look at the results again. It's not funny, it's sad. Regardless of if you're republican, democratic, or independent, I'm sure that everyone can agree the people should get the president that actually won. I still don't get how people aren't upset by it........it sets and aweful precedent.


The 2000 election results:

Gore: 50,999,897
Bush: 50,456,002

Sorry, but under the rules and laws we have the correct man did win. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh, and the system worked exactly as designed and will continue to work for as far as either of us can see.

Obviously, this got passed by the Supreme Court.........still curious why they stopped the recount. One would assume that they would want accurate results. Personally, I believe that we need a major election overhaul. Like I said, when the people don't get the president they wanted.....that's sad.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I wonder how "false" the election would have been had the person they wanted had won

No doubt - amazing how when the Dems lose it's 'vote fraud', but if the Dems *win* it's an honest election.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sv3n 0]

Quote

I wonder how "false" the election would have been had the person they wanted had won

Once again, it's not funny.

The majority of this country wanted Mr. Al Gore as president, the results still show that....that's not even bringing in the stuff that happened in florida. How could it be false, the numbers don't lie....or do they

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I would like to see the people get the president that they wanted.

Quote

THEY DID

Oh, did they? You need to look at the results again. It's not funny, it's sad. Regardless of if you're republican, democratic, or independent, I'm sure that everyone can agree the people should get the president that actually won. I still don't get how people aren't upset by it........it sets and aweful precedent.


The 2000 election results:

Gore: 50,999,897
Bush: 50,456,002

Sorry, but under the rules and laws we have the correct man did win. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh, and the system worked exactly as designed and will continue to work for as far as either of us can see.

Obviously, this got passed by the Supreme Court.........still curious why they stopped the recount. One would assume that they would want accurate results. Personally, I believe that we need a major election overhaul. Like I said, when the people don't get the president they wanted.....that's sad.

Obviously what????? You had better do a little research. The SC STOPPED a rogure court that was trying to change the rules in the middle of the game. You are loosing credibility fast here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sv3n 0]

"It's cause we're republican"..........that's original.

Quote

Quote

I wonder how "false" the election would have been had the person they wanted had won

No doubt - amazing how when the Dems lose it's 'vote fraud', but if the Dems *win* it's an honest election.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[sv3n 0]

Quote

Obviously what????? You had better do a little research. The SC STOPPED a rogure court that was trying to change the rules in the middle of the game. You are loosing credibility fast here

Actually, by florida law a recount needs to be done by hand...so they started to recount. When the numbers were starting to become in Gore's favor as more and more democratic votes were re-discovered the republican party started throwing a fit and friends and family members got called. There was a special late night supreme court session held.......I wonder who you have to know to get one of those..........and they stopped the recount and declared Bush had won. They believed in their decision so much......check this out...........they actually said that this decision was a one time thing and could not be used as a precedent in future elections.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

Obviously what????? You had better do a little research. The SC STOPPED a rogure court that was trying to change the rules in the middle of the game. You are loosing credibility fast here

Actually, by florida law a recount needs to be done by hand...so they started to recount. When the numbers were starting to become in Gore's favor as more and more democratic votes were re-discovered the republican party started throwing a fit and friends and family members got called. There was a special late night supreme court session held.......I wonder who you have to know to get one of those..........and they stopped the recount and declared Bush had won. They believed in their decision so much......check this out...........they actually said that this decision was a one time thing and could not be used as a precedent in future elections.

In Florida, if a recall is called for (and it can be) a hand count will be of ALL THE VOTES. Al Gore wanted only a few of the counties he thought would help him. As he messed with this technicallity he allowed the time to ask for a recount to expire. Add to the fact the the many recounts done by mulitiple media all showed Bush winning a statewide recount.

Care to try again?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Add some research on how the electoral college ACTUALLY works to your other assignments.

He doesn't get the purpose of the electoral college. No point discussing the up and down sides of it with someone unable to acknowledge the structure and rules. He continues to think it should be a rubber stamp of the popular vote, not the electoral balance of states rights balanced against the popular vote. Remember, it must be better because the logistics are possible now.

Apparently, State's rights don't matter in any way, shape, or form.

If the rules are electoral college and NOT popular vote, then Grover Cleveland did win and it's not "false". It's definitely a sour grapes discussion not worth any more effort.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Actually, by florida law a recount needs to be done by hand...so they started to recount. When the numbers were starting to become in Gore's favor as more and more democratic votes were re-discovered the republican party started throwing a fit and friends and family members got called. There was a special late night supreme court session held.......I wonder who you have to know to get one of those..........and they stopped the recount and declared Bush had won. They believed in their decision so much......check this out...........they actually said that this decision was a one time thing and could not be used as a precedent in future elections.

So that's how it all played out. Thanks for such an objective summary.

Getting back to the Electoral College, do you know why the Founding Fathers set it up? The principles behind it? Why it was implemented, instead of just having simpler process? Why a President elected without the popular vote is completely legitimate?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Getting back to the Electoral College, do you know why the Founding Fathers set it up? The principles behind it? Why it was implemented, instead of just having simpler process? Why a President elected without the popular vote is completely legitimate?

Hystoricle reaserch iz for pussies. If "my" theerey 'seems' to make cents too me, then Mrs. Williams, my 3rd grade teacher, will give me a B for effurt, even if I'm rong, because I'm showing reasening and thinking skill.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Sorry, but under the rules and laws we have the correct man did win. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Oh, and the system worked exactly as designed and will continue to work for as far as either of us can see.

Obviously, this got passed by the Supreme Court.........still curious why they stopped the recount. One would assume that they would want accurate results. Personally, I believe that we need a major election overhaul. Like I said, when the people don't get the president they wanted.....that's sad.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

The Supreme Court didn't "pass" the Electoral College - it has existed as long as the Court. They're not going to make a ruling that the President should now be elected by popular vote. They did stop the recounts, for the reasons given to you. At some point, you have to have a winner when January is approaching.

Had any of the subsequent recounts given Florida to Gore, you might have reason to question the decision, but that never happened. In terms of votes cast and countable, Bush won the state. You can think about error rate and vote rolls, but the only quantifiable result you have is the ballots cast and that's what we use for elections.

[sv3n 0]

What are you smokin? I never said the supreme court passed the electoral college. Read before you respond. The supreme court stopped the recount and thereby elected Mr Bush president.

I'm getting sick of all this bickering on here..... here's my point. You can call me an idealist, whatever....without a little idealism this country wouldn't exist.

The people vote for who they want elected. If the totalled votes say the people want a certain person as their president, how could you support a system that keeps that from happening and why would you support such a system?

It doesn't make any sense......it's the most unamerican thing that I can think of. Every person's vote should count equally and should not be skewed by a system that allows mistakes.

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

What are you smokin? I never said the supreme court passed the electoral college. Read before you respond. The supreme court stopped the recount and thereby elected Mr Bush president.No, it is what are you smokin????

The SC stopped an illegal attempt to rewrite the election rules that (Gore hoped) would have helped him!!! You need to get of Daily Kos or Democrats Underground. The info you are getting is very messed up

Not even to mention that BUSH won all the off the record recounts too

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sv3n 0]

Tell ya what....I'll rochambeau ya for who's perspective is right. We can argue this up and down til we're both blue in the face. Either you're republican or not............either you're pro-electoral college or not. It's pointless. There's so many ways to argue this and it'll just get responded with propaganda from the other end of the spectrum.

ps - I go first, spent a lot of time playing soccer as a kid.

Quote

Quote

What are you smokin? I never said the supreme court passed the electoral college. Read before you respond. The supreme court stopped the recount and thereby elected Mr Bush president.No, it is what are you smokin????

The SC stopped an illegal attempt to rewrite the election rules that (Gore hoped) would have helped him!!! You need to get of Daily Kos or Democrats Underground. The info you are getting is very messed up

Not even to mention that BUSH won all the off the record recounts too

...and you're in violation of your face!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Tell ya what....I'll rochambeau ya for who's perspective is right. We can argue this up and down til we're both blue in the face. Either you're republican or not............either you're pro-electoral college or not. It's pointless. There's so many ways to argue this and it'll just get responded with propaganda from the other end of the spectrum.

ps - I go first, spent a lot of time playing soccer as a kid.

Quote

Quote

What are you smokin? I never said the supreme court passed the electoral college. Read before you respond. The supreme court stopped the recount and thereby elected Mr Bush president.No, it is what are you smokin????

The SC stopped an illegal attempt to rewrite the election rules that (Gore hoped) would have helped him!!! You need to get of Daily Kos or Democrats Underground. The info you are getting is very messed up

Not even to mention that BUSH won all the off the record recounts too

I am pro electoral college. I am not a Republican or a Democrat, I am a conservative.

You have proven mulitple times on this thread that you do not care about the facts. I have posted some of them. You can research their validity if you care.

I only know you have brought up things that are false more than once and you have not repsonded to any of the info posted for you.

Yes, time is being wasted here, but not yours

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sv3n 0]

Quote

Yes, time is being wasted here, but not yours

And I feel the exact opposite.

...and you're in violation of your face!