ACMESkydiver 0 #76 August 7, 2007 QuoteI think the only real reason I'd have ANY misgivings about organ donation is that someone that could have been saved might die so their organs can be used to save someone else, but that doesn't really make any sense, so I'm not worried about it. Actually it does make sense. How much would someone with a death sentence pay for a kidney or a heart? Seriously? Personally, I am an organ donor -but I am not convinced that 'harvesting' wouldn't ever become a reality in the future... I don't have any preference what happens to this shell once I'm gone from it. Whatever my family needs to do to move on is what I would condone.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #77 August 7, 2007 QuoteI think one of my biggest rights is to be buried intact and complete. I think rights stop once dead, I mean seriously, either people can donate organs or the bugs get to feed on the polyester suit and the organs they get buried with. QuoteI do not wish to be an organ doner Why? Is it a religon stance? Do you feel that you need your kidneys or heart once your dead? QuoteI like to think I will give enough to people in life without, in death, being robbed of my organs. As of right now you dont have to donate anything but I wonder how many lives your organs could save if and when you die? Not to belittle anything you have done in life and not to belittle all you have left to do, but saving a life with the body you would no longer need seems to be reason enough to be a organ donor. In a way its the final way you can help the world you inhabited... you could give that mom on her death bed the kidney she needs to watch her children grow up , or that little boy the heart he needs to attend his graduation versus his own funeral. It is a gift you could give that helps you live on just a bit longer. QuoteSome may consider it selfish but I don't want to give after death. I wouldnt consider it selfish, I do wonder why you do not wish to donate because you are a kind person who does the best they can. You state you feel its disrespectful to the dead, but if that is true which is worse... disrespect to the dead or save many others from joining you in your fate? On the actual topic, yes I do believe people should be able to choose to donate or not, but its like all other things that need planning in death, you need to let it be known because if you dont then your next of kin decides. Since I choose to be cremated I am a organ donor, and it helps me save money on my drivers lisence so its a win win....Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #78 August 7, 2007 QuoteJust a thought. How would those of you who do not want to donate feel about that? Who are you talking to? Hasn't each person that wants the default to be 'no' instead of 'presumed' noted they have voluntarily already given permission? I could care less which is the default, provided one has the choice to reject the default. (except, I think it's a stickier legal position when the default is "presumed" instead of 'not' - though 'presumed' is a more generous, I'm much happier to see a definitive volunteering by individuals just for the sake that this is supportable after the fact.) I think a better solution is to not 'presume', but to encourage voluntary agreement by having a benefit from it for the family of the deceased. Then, by dying, you help someone sick and your family. Everyone wins. People are proud to have that organ donor notation on their driver's license. They chose to do something decent. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #79 August 7, 2007 Quote Ok, we should consider the embryo "simian" or whatever designation you want (please insert here your preference)in nature Noted. _We_ should not. Each of us could consider it either a human being or not a human being depending on our own opinion. There is no reason to have a common definition. Quote You will be ok, with promiscuous men and women, who may or maynot have diseases, spreading them with unprotected sex, and not be responsible for the consecuences of their actions (getting infected-pregnant)? Yes, I will be ok with that. I'm not the member of the Morale Police, and do not consider myself in charge to judge other human beings. Especially I would not force them to follow my moral rules, as I am sure they are not perfect. But you still missed the point. So you think the infected adults should not be allowed to use the "easiest way" (medicine), because they should be held responsible for their actions, is that correct? Quote You have kids? hope you would not mind them becoming porn stars would you? as Long as they take precautions right? I have kids, and I do not mind them becoming porn stars when they become adults. I want my kids to live the adult life THEY choose to live, not the life I choose for them to live. What's wrong with being a porn star? I like good porn (which is mostly French or Italian, I have to admit), and my personal opinion is that it is much better to be a porn star than a nun or a priest. Quote Well, put it this way, a single mother of 2, goes to get treatment on her 3rd pregnancy, and she has to undertake a government sanctioned abortion, because she live in welfare, and she has no means to raise another kid. Is this clear enough? This is simple enough - the government has to pay either for abortion, or to increase her welfare to support the 3rd kid.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #80 August 7, 2007 How convenient you did not reply to the portion of my post that related to given medications when needed, and to have the right to choose. Nice editing pal. Everyone raises their kids as the see fit, I'd rather (read prefer) see mine not to waste theirs in drugs, and unnecessary pain and suffering. And of course while under my care, they will need to have rules they need to abide, until they are mature enough to decide for themselves. It seems that you see that totally wrong, and your points of view come accross as anarchists. Incredible contradictions, yet you are ok if the government mandates abortions on women not willingly partaking in the decision. Pretty interesting. In the end we are all responsible for other people's choices. hmmm.. "According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #81 August 7, 2007 Quote How convenient you did not reply to the portion of my post that related to given medications when needed, and to have the right to choose. Nice editing pal. Why should I? That statement effectively contradicts with your previous statement, and basically says that the easiest route should be allowed even in the definitive case of irresponsible action. That was exactly my point. Good job, pal. Quote Everyone raises their kids as the see fit, But only selfish parents try to program their kids how they should live their lives. Quote I'd rather (read prefer) see mine not to waste theirs in drugs, and unnecessary pain and suffering. Yep, I too would rather prefer mine not to do skydiving. That's what you meant, right? Quote And of course while under my care, they will need to have rules they need to abide, until they are mature enough to decide for themselves. That is vague criteria, as we all have seen some people who were still not mature enough at the age of 40. At least I hope you'll acknowledge their free will to be themselves, and won't refuse them even if they decide to become a porn star. I still have no idea why you are so concerned about it, but anyway. Quote It seems that you see that totally wrong, and your points of view come accross as anarchists. I did not ask you to evaluate my points of view, and, to be honest, I absolutely do not care what you think about it. You just wasted some good bandwidth. Me too, though. Quote Incredible contradictions, yet you are ok if the government mandates abortions on women not willingly partaking in the decision. Seems like you misunderstood what I said. Nobody forces anyone to do an abortion. But if a woman wants an abortion because she could not support that kid, and the government does not allow her to do that abortion, the government should be responsible for this decision, and therefore increase the welfare for her. If she doesn't want an abortion, the situation is the same as we have now, no changes needed.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #82 August 7, 2007 QuoteBut only selfish parents try to program their kids how they should live their lives. Thats a crap statement.... I program my kids... and because of that they have empathy, sympthy, compassion, love, integrity etc I could go on all day... Its a parents JOB to program thier children to be productive additions to society as adults and to be the best they can be, which to some include how charitable thier hearts are. QuoteAt least I hope you'll acknowledge their free will to be themselves, and won't refuse them even if they decide to become a porn star. I still have no idea why you are so concerned about it, but anyway If a child as a adult chooses to be a porn star that generally is the adults choice... but quess what ? Juan isnt the only parent who excludes porn star from the convo of "What you could be when you grow up?". If my kid was to become one you can bet your ass I wouldnt want to recieve updates on thier promotion from fluffer to lead. Most parents do not dream (at least I hope not) that thier kid and thier kids private areas become the main attraction of the backroom of the movie store. I also hope that children dont want to star in such films before they even hit puberty. If so I would be extremly concerned about the way the parents expose them to things that they are not able to comprehend on an adult emotional and mental level. QuoteSeems like you misunderstood what I said. Nobody forces anyone to do an abortion. But if a woman wants an abortion because she could not support that kid, and the government does not allow her to do that abortion, the government should be responsible for this decision, and therefore increase the welfare for her. If she doesn't want an abortion, the situation is the same as we have now, no changes needed. Hate to point this out since its off topic but most girls or women do not have abortions because they are concerned with the costs. Abortion is not as cut and dry as you suggest. And not all women recieve welfare if they have children. So if a female wants an abortion because she was raped would providing her extra welfare help her be okay with keeping the child? BTW I am pro choice and against the death penalty and I am pro organ donation, which is what the topic is. If one of my children died, I would without knowing how they feel (they are children I do not intend to ask them if its okay to donate thier organs because I do not prepare for thier deaths nor would I burdon them with making a plan for in the event) donate thier organs without a thought. I would not feel bad about thier bodies being used to save others life when thier life ceased to exsist in an earthly form. If my child came to me and asked not to have thier organs donated I would explain exactly why I feel it is important and then remind them not to die before they are legal adults because I will not respect that wish. As thier parent and unless they change religons and its against the faith they converted to I am thier parent. Then again I dont foresee them and I talking about organ donation until they get thier first drivers lisence, and by then they will be poor highschool students and would click the box that allows them to pay less if they choose to donate. Then we get to have the talk about how many lives they could save if when they die there are vital and healthy organs that can be removed and placed into someone else. And since I have taught them to value not only thier own life but all those in which we indirectly and directly affect then its safe to assume that they will join me in my organ donation status and all because I started programming them from day one.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #83 August 7, 2007 Quote Thats a crap statement.... I program my kids... and because of that they have empathy, sympthy, compassion, love, integrity etc I could go on all day... Its a parents JOB to program thier children to be productive additions to society as adults and to be the best they can be, which to some include how charitable thier hearts are. That's not what I call programming. The things you mentioned are generic, and everyone does this. The devil, however, is in details. Teaching the child to read is definitely not programming. Teaching the child to read the Bible might be programming depending on circumstances, and teaching the child to read ONLY the Bible is definitely programming. That's what I'm talking about. Quote If a child as a adult chooses to be a porn star that generally is the adults choice... but quess what ? Juan isnt the only parent who excludes porn star from the convo of "What you could be when you grow up?". I could only guess what "convo" means, as it is absent in my vocabulaty. However I'm only asking, not answering the "what you could be when you grow up" question, and do not provide any answers. It is HER choice, not ours, and so far we only had problems with personalities (like "I want to be Paris Hilton"), and generics ("I want to be a president" - of what?). And while we do encourage or discourage her choices, we always tell he that we respect her choice, and she is the one who will ultimately make the choice. Quote If my kid was to become one you can bet your ass I wouldnt want to recieve updates on thier promotion from fluffer to lead. Most parents do not dream (at least I hope not) that thier kid and thier kids private areas become the main attraction of the backroom of the movie store. That is true, it's definitely not our dream. But again, even though very unlikely, it will be her adult choice, not ours. Most parents do not dream about McDonalds cashier job for their kid either. Regarding how bad or good the job is - it depends what you compare with. If she becomes a nun, I wouldn't want to receive updates on her promotion either. However it doesn't mean we'll refuse her. She is our daugher, and she always be, no matter. Quote I also hope that children dont want to star in such films before they even hit puberty. If so I would be extremly concerned about the way the parents expose them to things that they are not able to comprehend on an adult emotional and mental level. That's obvious, as before the child becomes adult, it is basically parent choice, not theirs. Just checked the original post; oops, I didn't make it really clear, sorry. Fixed it; obviously I'm only talking about an adult choice. Quote Hate to point this out since its off topic but most girls or women do not have abortions because they are concerned with the costs. Abortion is not as cut and dry as you suggest. And not all women recieve welfare if they have children. So if a female wants an abortion because she was raped would providing her extra welfare help her be okay with keeping the child? Nope. But you probably missed the point; we're talking about extra welfare in case the government does not allow abotrions. This makes it different. Quote If my child came to me and asked not to have thier organs donated I would explain exactly why I feel it is important and then remind them not to die before they are legal adults because I will not respect that wish. If my child came to me and asked about that, I would explain to her the reasons why the organs are donated, what they are used for, how it could save lives of other children, and therefore how important the organ donation is. However if she still decided not to donate, I would respect her wish, even though I'd be pissed off. BTW, what is "fluffer"? Haven't found any reasonable definition.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #84 August 7, 2007 Teaching the child to read is definitely not programming Quote Actually yes it is, its programming ones child with some form of importance on education. Programming a child to read the bible per the parents belief system is more of scheldue programming. Teaching a child to read only the bible is setting a child up for ignorance, I am a Christian and Ive worked hard at figuring out for myself why I am and why I choose to be, to program a child to limit themselves (btw this is a huge part of life for many cultures, the bible is well thier entire life) would in my opinion be setting my future nursing home picker outers up for a life that they dont understand and one they might feel to seperated from to be productive additions. Thats not to say my children and the daily life they lead is of thier own free will. Thier free will extends to very few aspects of thier life right now... as they prove to me that they will not use thier free will to hinder others free will they recieve less limits. I could only guess what "convo" means, as it is absent in my vocabulaty. Quote Im sorry, often I type as I think and did not take into consideration the language barrier and its bearings on my post, convo was short for conversation. However I'm only asking, not answering the "what you could be when you grow up" question, and do not provide any answers. It is HER choice Quote Similar ideas here but when my kids ask me what they should be if they didnt answer me I would give them "types" of things they could be and those would be things like a doctor, a lawyer, a artist, etc etc. All mine have picked out thier future life which I know will change as they do. I just never will have a conversation in which I promote or give them the idea of making porn. I also cant imagine me being happy if I hear it, actually Id probably get sick to my stomach and offer to support them if they were only doing it for money. If they WANTED to do it, well revert back to the fact I wouldnt want to hear about it. ***even though very unlikely, it will be her adult choice, not ours. agreed Quote Most parents do not dream about McDonalds cashier job for their kid either Its only been about 2 years that my youngest changed his goal of working at McDonalds to becoming a astronaut... then again he was under 5 then. Quote If my child came to me and asked about that, I would explain to her the reasons why the organs are donated, what they are used for, how it could save lives of other children, and therefore how important the organ donation is. However if she still decided not to donate, I would respect her wish, even though I'd be pissed off. Thats where we definitly differ, I make it known that our house is not a democracy ... They only make decsions for themselves if its allowed by me thier dictator, I am my childrens friend 1% of the time, the other 99% I am the mom, I am thier president. I make everyday choices for them because regardless of if they think its fair I know better then they do in most aspects of life. Including the fact that once they die they are dead. Even if my 8 year old tells me not to donate his organs in the event of his death I would take it into consideration and then proceed to know that as sad as it would be for him to die that a bit of him has the potential to save others and that I would rather save the living then worship an empty vessal by preserving organs that can and do save many people. The soul cant be donated and its my childrens souls I love, but once they die there body is only a dead body. If they were teens and decided not to donate, id be upset but if they are old enough to drive, then they are old enough to hold on to thier dead body parts if they so wish. However as long as I am the dictator of this house my children will be organ donors. Talking about my kids dying is enough to make my stomach turn though so its hard to visualize my exact ability to donate them. Quote BTW, what is "fluffer"? Haven't found any reasonable definition. A fluffer is the male or female who aids the male in getting an erection for his on camera performance. Its not resonable in my opinion but then again when talking porn I assume a fluffer is an important part of the process Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #85 August 7, 2007 So, bottom line, while your kids are not yet adults, you pretty much allow them to do whatever they please. No bed times, no doing homework. Must be lovely your household.Well, guees you will be a proud daddy then when you hear your loved ones spreading HIV, and you loving encouragement on that behaviour.Again, your misled interpretation of mature as I see fit to adulthood is quite surprising. (They legally reach adulthood to 18) After that I will have an opinion, and always will try to lead them, not control them, but I bet is a hard concept for an anarchist household to understand. "According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #86 August 7, 2007 QuoteWe can't help everyone and there has got to be a natural balance. Quote Then you really have no argument. Fair play is a human concept, the natural order is to take from those with less power than you. As a dead person, you have no power and thus its only natural that we take what we want from you. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #87 August 7, 2007 Quote Actually yes it is, its programming ones child with some form of importance on education. Programming a child to read the bible per the parents belief system is more of scheldue programming. Teaching a child to read only the bible is setting a child up for ignorance, I am a Christian and Ive worked hard at figuring out for myself why I am and why I choose to be, to program a child to limit themselves Maybe I just chose the wrong word, but I start considering something programming when the child is asked to work a lot on something which is unusual for the specific society, with the intention to make a major change in the child life. For example, NOT reading the Koran in all-Muslim country, where everyone supposed to read it, could be considered programming as well. My mother was (and is) Jehova Witness, and I am not, which I consider an example of programming as well; I follow it with my daughter, who already reads the Skeptic's Bible and knows exactly why Noah Arc is a myth. Quote Im sorry, often I type as I think and did not take into consideration the language barrier and its bearings on my post, convo was short for conversation. No, it's actually good for me, as I'm still learning. Thank you for explanation. Quote Similar ideas here but when my kids ask me what they should be if they didnt answer me I would give them "types" of things they could be and those would be things like a doctor, a lawyer, a artist, etc etc. All mine have picked out thier future life which I know will change as they do. I juse tell her - look around! See that gas station? Somebody cleans up the place. Someone works there as a cashier. Someone does repair and maintenance. Someone makes the pumps. Someone drives fuel trucks to provide fuel. Someone does accounting, audit, provides and maintains water and electricity, orders supplies, manages the team, and so on. Then I explain advantages and disadvantages, like the person who cleans the place earns little, but does not require any education; doctor earns a lot, but there is a lot of education and post-education involved, which will cost time - part of your life, a huge investment. And so on. Quote Thats where we definitly differ, I make it known that our house is not a democracy ... They only make decsions for themselves if its allowed by me thier dictator, I am my childrens friend 1% of the time, the other 99% I am the mom, I am thier president. It is not democracy either. We have the rules she must follow (and nobody else has to follow them), but there are areas she has freedom to decide for her future - like religion, friendship, future school/university/job, and this includes donorship as well. Quote A fluffer is the male or female who aids the male in getting an erection for his on camera performance. So they cheat! :D* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #88 August 7, 2007 Quote So, bottom line, while your kids are not yet adults, you pretty much allow them to do whatever they please. No bed times, no doing homework. Must be lovely your household. Nope. There are rules the kids must follow. But those rules are reasonable, and the necessity is explained. Bed time is explained as the kids only grow while sleep, homework is needed to maintain her "best in classroom" status in the school. Actually I almost never help her with homework, and she is responsible to read the homework before leaving the school, and ask the teacher if she has any questions. It is also easy to enforce rules like "no pizza/pepsi" or "no TV" - we have neither in our house. Quote Well, guees you will be a proud daddy then when you hear your loved ones spreading HIV, and you loving encouragement on that behaviour. From what I heard the ones who spread STDs and get pregnant are mostly from the families where everything was very restrictive, and nobody was allowed to even mention things like condoms. "Just say no" did not, and does not work. If your experience is different, please share. Quote After that I will have an opinion, and always will try to lead them, not control them, but I bet is a hard concept for an anarchist household to understand. The problem in this approach is that if you lead a child, it will never exceed you. And while our children could be more capable than we are, they would be unable to fulfil this advantage if they only follow you. Most people I work with definitely exceed their parents' expectations. What if they followed their advice instead? Would a farmer lead his son to be the President? I doubt it.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #89 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuote>If someone does not want to donate, who are we to coerce them? We should not. Anyone who expresses a wish to not donate should not be forced to. However, if they do not care enough to express a wish, we should go the avenue that saves lives. Loss of a donor means that people die; in the US alone, someone dies every 90 minutes because they could not get donor organs in time. There's a good reason to err on the side of donation. And then again, the invasive procedure should be the request, not the other way around. It is already in place in the US, you just have to tell the people at the DMV to plave "donor" on your license. It's quite easy, really! Actually, the donor indication on your DL means nothing. It's really a promote public awareness kind of thing. You can have "ORGAN DONOR" tattooed on your chest but it won't happen without next of kin permission. If you really want to be an organ donor, make sure your next of kin are clearly aware of your wishes ...better yet, sign a statement to that effect, have them witness it and have it notorized. It's not binding, but it may help them with their decision.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #90 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteHow about those that refuse to become organ donors will not be able receive an organ either. Excellent point. I'll second that. Oh, okay. How about those that refuse to purchase health insurance will not be able receive financial support for healthcare? Or does this kind of exclusion not jibe with your sense of entitlement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #91 August 7, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone should be seen as a potential organ donor on their death unless they expressly request not to be, England's chief medical officer says. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote How ridiculous. I think one of my biggest rights is to be buried intact and complete. I do not wish to be an organ doner. I like to think I will give enough to people in life without, in death, being robbed of my organs. I am in total agreement with you . The default position is that no one gets anything without my permission. The other position is just more of the slippery slope of socialism where you are not your own person. Ever. For those who think that it's OK to steal my parts, let's take this position to its final and ridiculous end. Where does it stop? First, it's the usable organs. After all, they're inside the body and nobody is going to miss them. Least of all, you. So you've requested an open casket funeral. Wait a mintue. They want your nose cartilidge and your ears. But they can replace those with prostetics. They want your skin for grafts for burn victims. Forget the open casket. Oh well, now that no one can view you, they may as well burn you up, or better yet,why not part you out completely. Why waste all of those good bones and joints, not to mention that 20 sq.ft. that your coffin would occupy. We are probably going to need that space for apartments for all of the people that we've saved by using parts from the dead. With all of these people crowding the earth, walking around with other peoples' parts,there's not going to be much room left for livestock for meat, and you were so selfish in not remembering the care of your yapping little chihuahua. I doubt if he will know that it's you in the can. And for all of you selfish cremation types, who want your ashes cast upon the waters or taken on an ash dive, stop polluting the environment. I don't want to have to drink or snort your dirty ass. Maybe you could give your ashes to the govt. to help pave roads. Oh, wait. The Germans have already done that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #92 August 7, 2007 Quote steal my parts, How would you file the police report? Quote So you've requested an open casket funeral. Wait a mintue. They want your nose cartilidge and your ears. But they can replace those with prostetics. They want your skin for grafts for burn victims. Forget the open casket. So you made a request, last night I requested no mustard on my sandwich and not only did I get mustard but I paid for that shit to. Be grateful your dead in this instence because your not footing the bill for the open casket and if you are your foots been donated. YOUR DEAD who cares what happens with the remains, as long as I dont find them in my sandwich and as long as theres enough people out there to continue to donate organs I can continue to eat burgers and let my own heart go bad. Quote not to mention that 20 sq.ft. that your coffin would occupy. Well my coffin would not free up so much space but my ashes will float around in the water to be eaten and shit out and or whatever by marine life. Im not worried, Im dead, I want my ashes in the water (illigally of course, I like my next of kin to much to make them go through the paper work to properly dispose of my ashes) because its easy, because its cheaper and Im dead. As long as Im not in a box, on display with frigid skin and to much makeup from the min wage teen who was hired to fix me up like my picture. Why do you care about the things you can not and will not use in the future? I dont get all pissed off when I recycle my moutain dew bottles because they get turned into something else. Your dead, give what you can, because when it boils down to it we all suck on some level and at some time deserve a few points so donate your friggen organs so others dont have to die like you did. Since death leaves no bragging rights for the dead who the fuck cares, your feelings cant be hurt, think outside the box and save some money for the people stuck with disposal of your carcuss to pay off the debt they get to also inherit as next of kin if not to be a helpful and charitable person. Quote And for all of you selfish cremation types, who want your ashes cast upon the waters or taken on an ash dive, stop polluting the environment. I don't want to have to drink or snort your dirty ass. Just cause you dont want to does not mean you dont, havent or wont in the future, for this reason I might just change my body of water choice to fresh water. BTW fish shit in fresh water, Id rather eat ash that I dont know is there then to drink water I know was the restroom for fish and whales and kids who think its okay to pee in the water. Quote Maybe you could give your ashes to the govt. to help pave roads. Now your getting the idea... charity... give... good boy Quote Oh, wait. The Germans have already done that Shit the whole Nazi thing rule... threads dead Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #93 August 7, 2007 Quote My mother was (and is) Jehova Witness, and I am not, which I consider an example of programming as well; I follow it with my daughter, who already reads the Skeptic's Bible and knows exactly why Noah Arc is a myth. No programming there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,588 #94 August 7, 2007 Great post. Question for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #95 August 7, 2007 Quote as long as theres enough people out there to continue to donate organs I can continue to eat burgers and let my own heart go bad. How very selfish of you not to keep that ticker in the best possible condition for that potential donee.[Is it a word?] Quote As long as Im not in a box, on display with frigid skin and to much makeup from the min wage teen who was hired to fix me up like my picture. My sister is a funeral director. Those who make you look better than life are highly paid artists. Not a job I would want. Quote Why do you care about the things you can not and will not use in the future? I dont get all pissed off when I recycle my moutain dew bottles because they get turned into something else. Your dead, give what you can, because when it boils down to it we all suck on some level and at some time deserve a few points so donate your friggen organs so others dont have to die like you did. Since death leaves no bragging rights for the dead who the fuck cares, your feelings cant be hurt, think outside the box and save some money for the people stuck with disposal of your carcuss to pay off the debt they get to also inherit as next of kin if not to be a helpful and charitable person. I don't actually have a problem with organ donation and the argument isn't about me. It's about the govt. considering you to be their property to do with as they see fit. The decision needs to be mine, not theirs. Quote Shit the whole Nazi thing rule... threads dead Let's remember to take all of the good parts and recycle them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #96 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuestion for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Simple. Even though I'm dead, people do not have an automatic right to my stuff. They should ask nicely if they can have it after I've finished with it, not just assume that they can take whatever they want just because I didn't say no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #97 August 7, 2007 Quoteis it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Really I believe it should be a persons right to be dead however they want, is what I dont understand is why all the reasoning is the same "because its my body" when I think of death to me it means the body is well dead. I sqush bugs, they die, they go in the trash, if they are a bug my dragons can eat I dont even wait for them to die to recycle them. Dead is dead. Please the over my dead body types also express something other then your rights. Once your dead you cant vote legally, you cant get married and most places you cant even have sex, so why not give the dead in you a life in someone who can?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #98 August 7, 2007 QuoteOnce your dead you cant vote legally, except in Chicago a society that believes in personal property, self determination, etc, should leave decisions up to people but this has degenerated from a thread about what should be the default, to just contrast of personal choice vs...... well, I'm not really sure what the other side is trying to do other than feed a level of self righteous indignation and to eat endless supplies of Eggo's Keep up people - wanting to choose to donate instead of being forced is NOT EQUAL to opposition to donation...... portraying it in any other way is just self stroking via strawman tactics - we already have enough experts in that technique Make it a choice, respect other people's personal decisions on it like you'd like your choice accepted, encourage donation (it really is the right thing) and reward the families of those that do. On the other hand, it's heartening to see that no one has posted the standard "it's pretty hard to see why someone wouldn't contribute to organ donor considering all the money wasted on a pointless war" QuoteReally I believe it should be a persons right to be dead however they want Really, read your own posts in this thread, you really don't believe that and neither do quite a few people here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #99 August 7, 2007 QuoteGreat post. Question for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Wendy W. Have you noticed that the 'not my body parts' folks tend to be the same ones who have a long history of of strenuous objection to just about any sort of help or compassion to those in need (e.g child health care, disaster victims) and are the same folks who have been ardent neo-cons? You have all the data you need to define where their narrow, self-serving sense of values lie.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #100 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteGreat post. Question for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Wendy W. Have you noticed that the 'not my body parts' folks tend to be the same ones who have a long history of of strenuous objection to just about any sort of help or compassion to those in need (e.g child health care, disaster victims) and are the same folks who have been ardent neo-cons? You have all the data you need to define where their narrow, self-serving sense of values lie. Speaking of narrow and self-serving, this post^^^ is a prime example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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georgerussia 0 #87 August 7, 2007 Quote Actually yes it is, its programming ones child with some form of importance on education. Programming a child to read the bible per the parents belief system is more of scheldue programming. Teaching a child to read only the bible is setting a child up for ignorance, I am a Christian and Ive worked hard at figuring out for myself why I am and why I choose to be, to program a child to limit themselves Maybe I just chose the wrong word, but I start considering something programming when the child is asked to work a lot on something which is unusual for the specific society, with the intention to make a major change in the child life. For example, NOT reading the Koran in all-Muslim country, where everyone supposed to read it, could be considered programming as well. My mother was (and is) Jehova Witness, and I am not, which I consider an example of programming as well; I follow it with my daughter, who already reads the Skeptic's Bible and knows exactly why Noah Arc is a myth. Quote Im sorry, often I type as I think and did not take into consideration the language barrier and its bearings on my post, convo was short for conversation. No, it's actually good for me, as I'm still learning. Thank you for explanation. Quote Similar ideas here but when my kids ask me what they should be if they didnt answer me I would give them "types" of things they could be and those would be things like a doctor, a lawyer, a artist, etc etc. All mine have picked out thier future life which I know will change as they do. I juse tell her - look around! See that gas station? Somebody cleans up the place. Someone works there as a cashier. Someone does repair and maintenance. Someone makes the pumps. Someone drives fuel trucks to provide fuel. Someone does accounting, audit, provides and maintains water and electricity, orders supplies, manages the team, and so on. Then I explain advantages and disadvantages, like the person who cleans the place earns little, but does not require any education; doctor earns a lot, but there is a lot of education and post-education involved, which will cost time - part of your life, a huge investment. And so on. Quote Thats where we definitly differ, I make it known that our house is not a democracy ... They only make decsions for themselves if its allowed by me thier dictator, I am my childrens friend 1% of the time, the other 99% I am the mom, I am thier president. It is not democracy either. We have the rules she must follow (and nobody else has to follow them), but there are areas she has freedom to decide for her future - like religion, friendship, future school/university/job, and this includes donorship as well. Quote A fluffer is the male or female who aids the male in getting an erection for his on camera performance. So they cheat! :D* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #88 August 7, 2007 Quote So, bottom line, while your kids are not yet adults, you pretty much allow them to do whatever they please. No bed times, no doing homework. Must be lovely your household. Nope. There are rules the kids must follow. But those rules are reasonable, and the necessity is explained. Bed time is explained as the kids only grow while sleep, homework is needed to maintain her "best in classroom" status in the school. Actually I almost never help her with homework, and she is responsible to read the homework before leaving the school, and ask the teacher if she has any questions. It is also easy to enforce rules like "no pizza/pepsi" or "no TV" - we have neither in our house. Quote Well, guees you will be a proud daddy then when you hear your loved ones spreading HIV, and you loving encouragement on that behaviour. From what I heard the ones who spread STDs and get pregnant are mostly from the families where everything was very restrictive, and nobody was allowed to even mention things like condoms. "Just say no" did not, and does not work. If your experience is different, please share. Quote After that I will have an opinion, and always will try to lead them, not control them, but I bet is a hard concept for an anarchist household to understand. The problem in this approach is that if you lead a child, it will never exceed you. And while our children could be more capable than we are, they would be unable to fulfil this advantage if they only follow you. Most people I work with definitely exceed their parents' expectations. What if they followed their advice instead? Would a farmer lead his son to be the President? I doubt it.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #89 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuote>If someone does not want to donate, who are we to coerce them? We should not. Anyone who expresses a wish to not donate should not be forced to. However, if they do not care enough to express a wish, we should go the avenue that saves lives. Loss of a donor means that people die; in the US alone, someone dies every 90 minutes because they could not get donor organs in time. There's a good reason to err on the side of donation. And then again, the invasive procedure should be the request, not the other way around. It is already in place in the US, you just have to tell the people at the DMV to plave "donor" on your license. It's quite easy, really! Actually, the donor indication on your DL means nothing. It's really a promote public awareness kind of thing. You can have "ORGAN DONOR" tattooed on your chest but it won't happen without next of kin permission. If you really want to be an organ donor, make sure your next of kin are clearly aware of your wishes ...better yet, sign a statement to that effect, have them witness it and have it notorized. It's not binding, but it may help them with their decision.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #90 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteHow about those that refuse to become organ donors will not be able receive an organ either. Excellent point. I'll second that. Oh, okay. How about those that refuse to purchase health insurance will not be able receive financial support for healthcare? Or does this kind of exclusion not jibe with your sense of entitlement? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #91 August 7, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everyone should be seen as a potential organ donor on their death unless they expressly request not to be, England's chief medical officer says. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote How ridiculous. I think one of my biggest rights is to be buried intact and complete. I do not wish to be an organ doner. I like to think I will give enough to people in life without, in death, being robbed of my organs. I am in total agreement with you . The default position is that no one gets anything without my permission. The other position is just more of the slippery slope of socialism where you are not your own person. Ever. For those who think that it's OK to steal my parts, let's take this position to its final and ridiculous end. Where does it stop? First, it's the usable organs. After all, they're inside the body and nobody is going to miss them. Least of all, you. So you've requested an open casket funeral. Wait a mintue. They want your nose cartilidge and your ears. But they can replace those with prostetics. They want your skin for grafts for burn victims. Forget the open casket. Oh well, now that no one can view you, they may as well burn you up, or better yet,why not part you out completely. Why waste all of those good bones and joints, not to mention that 20 sq.ft. that your coffin would occupy. We are probably going to need that space for apartments for all of the people that we've saved by using parts from the dead. With all of these people crowding the earth, walking around with other peoples' parts,there's not going to be much room left for livestock for meat, and you were so selfish in not remembering the care of your yapping little chihuahua. I doubt if he will know that it's you in the can. And for all of you selfish cremation types, who want your ashes cast upon the waters or taken on an ash dive, stop polluting the environment. I don't want to have to drink or snort your dirty ass. Maybe you could give your ashes to the govt. to help pave roads. Oh, wait. The Germans have already done that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #92 August 7, 2007 Quote steal my parts, How would you file the police report? Quote So you've requested an open casket funeral. Wait a mintue. They want your nose cartilidge and your ears. But they can replace those with prostetics. They want your skin for grafts for burn victims. Forget the open casket. So you made a request, last night I requested no mustard on my sandwich and not only did I get mustard but I paid for that shit to. Be grateful your dead in this instence because your not footing the bill for the open casket and if you are your foots been donated. YOUR DEAD who cares what happens with the remains, as long as I dont find them in my sandwich and as long as theres enough people out there to continue to donate organs I can continue to eat burgers and let my own heart go bad. Quote not to mention that 20 sq.ft. that your coffin would occupy. Well my coffin would not free up so much space but my ashes will float around in the water to be eaten and shit out and or whatever by marine life. Im not worried, Im dead, I want my ashes in the water (illigally of course, I like my next of kin to much to make them go through the paper work to properly dispose of my ashes) because its easy, because its cheaper and Im dead. As long as Im not in a box, on display with frigid skin and to much makeup from the min wage teen who was hired to fix me up like my picture. Why do you care about the things you can not and will not use in the future? I dont get all pissed off when I recycle my moutain dew bottles because they get turned into something else. Your dead, give what you can, because when it boils down to it we all suck on some level and at some time deserve a few points so donate your friggen organs so others dont have to die like you did. Since death leaves no bragging rights for the dead who the fuck cares, your feelings cant be hurt, think outside the box and save some money for the people stuck with disposal of your carcuss to pay off the debt they get to also inherit as next of kin if not to be a helpful and charitable person. Quote And for all of you selfish cremation types, who want your ashes cast upon the waters or taken on an ash dive, stop polluting the environment. I don't want to have to drink or snort your dirty ass. Just cause you dont want to does not mean you dont, havent or wont in the future, for this reason I might just change my body of water choice to fresh water. BTW fish shit in fresh water, Id rather eat ash that I dont know is there then to drink water I know was the restroom for fish and whales and kids who think its okay to pee in the water. Quote Maybe you could give your ashes to the govt. to help pave roads. Now your getting the idea... charity... give... good boy Quote Oh, wait. The Germans have already done that Shit the whole Nazi thing rule... threads dead Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #93 August 7, 2007 Quote My mother was (and is) Jehova Witness, and I am not, which I consider an example of programming as well; I follow it with my daughter, who already reads the Skeptic's Bible and knows exactly why Noah Arc is a myth. No programming there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #94 August 7, 2007 Great post. Question for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #95 August 7, 2007 Quote as long as theres enough people out there to continue to donate organs I can continue to eat burgers and let my own heart go bad. How very selfish of you not to keep that ticker in the best possible condition for that potential donee.[Is it a word?] Quote As long as Im not in a box, on display with frigid skin and to much makeup from the min wage teen who was hired to fix me up like my picture. My sister is a funeral director. Those who make you look better than life are highly paid artists. Not a job I would want. Quote Why do you care about the things you can not and will not use in the future? I dont get all pissed off when I recycle my moutain dew bottles because they get turned into something else. Your dead, give what you can, because when it boils down to it we all suck on some level and at some time deserve a few points so donate your friggen organs so others dont have to die like you did. Since death leaves no bragging rights for the dead who the fuck cares, your feelings cant be hurt, think outside the box and save some money for the people stuck with disposal of your carcuss to pay off the debt they get to also inherit as next of kin if not to be a helpful and charitable person. I don't actually have a problem with organ donation and the argument isn't about me. It's about the govt. considering you to be their property to do with as they see fit. The decision needs to be mine, not theirs. Quote Shit the whole Nazi thing rule... threads dead Let's remember to take all of the good parts and recycle them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #96 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuestion for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Simple. Even though I'm dead, people do not have an automatic right to my stuff. They should ask nicely if they can have it after I've finished with it, not just assume that they can take whatever they want just because I didn't say no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #97 August 7, 2007 Quoteis it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Really I believe it should be a persons right to be dead however they want, is what I dont understand is why all the reasoning is the same "because its my body" when I think of death to me it means the body is well dead. I sqush bugs, they die, they go in the trash, if they are a bug my dragons can eat I dont even wait for them to die to recycle them. Dead is dead. Please the over my dead body types also express something other then your rights. Once your dead you cant vote legally, you cant get married and most places you cant even have sex, so why not give the dead in you a life in someone who can?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #98 August 7, 2007 QuoteOnce your dead you cant vote legally, except in Chicago a society that believes in personal property, self determination, etc, should leave decisions up to people but this has degenerated from a thread about what should be the default, to just contrast of personal choice vs...... well, I'm not really sure what the other side is trying to do other than feed a level of self righteous indignation and to eat endless supplies of Eggo's Keep up people - wanting to choose to donate instead of being forced is NOT EQUAL to opposition to donation...... portraying it in any other way is just self stroking via strawman tactics - we already have enough experts in that technique Make it a choice, respect other people's personal decisions on it like you'd like your choice accepted, encourage donation (it really is the right thing) and reward the families of those that do. On the other hand, it's heartening to see that no one has posted the standard "it's pretty hard to see why someone wouldn't contribute to organ donor considering all the money wasted on a pointless war" QuoteReally I believe it should be a persons right to be dead however they want Really, read your own posts in this thread, you really don't believe that and neither do quite a few people here. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #99 August 7, 2007 QuoteGreat post. Question for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Wendy W. Have you noticed that the 'not my body parts' folks tend to be the same ones who have a long history of of strenuous objection to just about any sort of help or compassion to those in need (e.g child health care, disaster victims) and are the same folks who have been ardent neo-cons? You have all the data you need to define where their narrow, self-serving sense of values lie.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #100 August 7, 2007 QuoteQuoteGreat post. Question for the not over my dead body types: is it so hard to say that you don't want any of your parts donated? Or is it just that you don't want to have to highlight that you don't define the norm? Wendy W. Have you noticed that the 'not my body parts' folks tend to be the same ones who have a long history of of strenuous objection to just about any sort of help or compassion to those in need (e.g child health care, disaster victims) and are the same folks who have been ardent neo-cons? You have all the data you need to define where their narrow, self-serving sense of values lie. Speaking of narrow and self-serving, this post^^^ is a prime example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
