beowulf 1 #576 August 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAny theologian who has stopped learning is not a truth seeker. they are afraid of discovering they may have been wrong about a given subject. Does that go for the existence of god too? I do have a core belief that I am wonderfully made by a creator that loves me. Dang if everything I see in this world isn't through that lens. ~ Steveorino As a true seeker, surely you can't be afraid of discovering that you might actually be wrong? Sure, I could be wrong, but what evidence will you present to make me change my mind? It is impossible to prove or show evidence that something does not exist. You can only do so through the lack of evidence. If there is no evidence of something then the only reasonable conclusion is that it doesn't exist. You have no scientific evidence (that is the only kind of evidence) that god exists therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is that god does not exist due to a lack of evidence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #577 August 23, 2007 Quote It is impossible to prove or show evidence that something does not exist. You can only do so through the lack of evidence. If there is no evidence of something then the only reasonable conclusion is that it doesn't exist. You have no scientific evidence (that is the only kind of evidence) that god exists therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is that god does not exist due to a lack of evidence. That doesn't work for me. This does though ... John 20:27 - 29 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." [empahsis mine] steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #578 August 23, 2007 'The one's i personally respect are thge ones that went to colleges & unviversities to gather greater insight. ' But the people who went to college to study the bible, they dont agree on the bible so your argument falls apart. Do you know who wrote those athiest web sites that discredit the bible? These are not people who just made stuff up, they have studied. Let me give you the authors of the some of those very web sites: Bob Price is the Infidel Guy's Bible Geek he has a PHd is theology from Drew University and is Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies, Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary Rchard Carrier was the editor of the Secualr Web. He is a PHD candidate in ancient History and Languages and lectures at Columbia University in those topics. Ive heard several Christians debate him and all have bowed to his superior knowledge of ancient Greek. The author of the end of Bilical Studies is Hector Avalos, Phd from Harvard in Biblical Studies and Professor of religious Studies Iowa State. Donal Morgan Compiled thee list of the Bibilcal Contradiction on Internet Infidels , he was a former Chairman of The Christian Education Commitee Dan Barker is the co presient of the Freedoom from Religion foundation. he speaks Hebrew and Greek, has a degree in religion from Azusa University and was a pastor and missionary. These are a few examples of people who have studied the bible at least as well as you have and have come to the conclusion its all rubbish. So im afriad to say studying the bible does not guarantee one wil come out with your views. Perhaps you could give us your own qualificaitons? can i check you speak Hebrew and Greek? I went to a hebrew school and my studied helped to turn me into an athiest. As to your long list of therapies you are really missing the point entirely. The question is not which therapies you use , the question is what is your criteria for using them? A proper criteria is do the said therapies have strong reliable evidence to back their efficacy? This is the key issue and its one you seem woefully ignorant of. Just like with religion, the issue isnt what is your core belief is but what evidence do you have to arrive at your core belief? You by your own admission dont have any evidence. You may look around and see god but that is not evidence in any way shape or form. Evidence is testbale and objective it can verified or falsified. Nothing you have said falls into that category. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #579 August 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteAlso, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him Quote So what happens to the millions of people that have never heard of Christianity or JC, the aboriginal people here in Australia, obscure tribes in Africa, and other nations… they just burn in hell do they??? as there never going have faith in your god as theve never heard of him, or heard of your religion.. and to not accept your god comes with a hot poker up the ass from a angry red man with horns.. A cursory knowledge of scripture would let you know that is not true. God will judge manking based on the knowledge they had. God is fair and merciful in his judgment. Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me…----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #580 August 24, 2007 Phil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this. If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist. As things stand right now, no one has any idea what fuels and drives the self consciousness that defines our being ( Soul) . You may say its a function of the electrical activity along neurons, dendrites, synaspes, involving neurotransmitters, & glial cells, all occurring in the proper physiological environment. I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #581 August 24, 2007 You need more then passages from a book that can not be verified to convince me. All of your "evidence" is in one book. That isn't much at all and all it means is that someone wrote words on paper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #582 August 24, 2007 QuotePhil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this. If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist. As things stand right now, no one has any idea what fuels and drives the self consciousness that defines our being ( Soul) . You may say its a function of the electrical activity along neurons, dendrites, synaspes, involving neurotransmitters, & glial cells, all occurring in the proper physiological environment. I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. There is no evidence of life after death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #583 August 24, 2007 QuoteQuote It is impossible to prove or show evidence that something does not exist. You can only do so through the lack of evidence. If there is no evidence of something then the only reasonable conclusion is that it doesn't exist. You have no scientific evidence (that is the only kind of evidence) that god exists therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is that god does not exist due to a lack of evidence. That doesn't work for me. This does though ... John 20:27 - 29 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." [empahsis mine] Of course it doesn’t work for you, Steve, its just cop out after cop out to try and defend you belief… you simply cannot deny the fact that the “complete and utter” lack of any scientific evidence can only be interpreted as there is no god. Until evidence is found this is the only logical position. As I understand John20 tells us about “doubting Thomas” who refused to believe until he saw JC in the flesh. The “blessed are those who have not seen me” refers to the fact that you and I don’t have the benefit of seeing and hearing the resurrected Christ the way Thomas, Mary, John, and the other disciples did. You and I are called upon to believe without seeing. Now unfortunately this method of “believing without seeing” is just not acceptable to science, where do you think we would be today if this methodology was used. Science is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system???----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #584 August 24, 2007 QuotePhil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this. If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist. As things stand right now, no one has any idea what fuels and drives the self consciousness that defines our being ( Soul) . You may say its a function of the electrical activity along neurons, dendrites, synaspes, involving neurotransmitters, & glial cells, all occurring in the proper physiological environment. I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. Currently based on all known scientific evidence, the logical and only conclusion is that there is no life after death. If you have evidence otherwise then please share it...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #585 August 24, 2007 Quote'The one's i personally respect are thge ones that went to colleges & unviversities to gather greater insight. ' But the people who went to college to study the bible, they dont agree on the bible so your argument falls apart.. Does that mean the arguments of scientist who disagree on the cause of global warming fall apart? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #586 August 24, 2007 QuoteScience is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system??? Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #587 August 24, 2007 Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #588 August 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteScience is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system??? Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? You miss the point again, whilst you might not be able to "measure" love, you could certainly using "scientific method" prove that it exists.. (May 31, 2005) A team led by a neuroscientist, an anthropologist and a social psychologist found love-related neurophysiological systems inside a magnetic resonance imaging machine. They detected quantifiable love responses in the brains of 17 young men and women who each described themselves as being newly and madly in love.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #589 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #590 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement? "I" wouldn't bet "my" eternal life on it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #591 August 24, 2007 QuoteThese are a few examples of people who have studied the bible at least as well as you have and have come to the conclusion its all rubbish. So im afriad to say studying the bible does not guarantee one wil come out with your views. I never said you would. What I did say if you had the exegetical knowledge of a Bible College freshman you most likely wouldn't take Isaiah's proclamation to Cyrus out of context to make an exclusive statement about God. QuotePerhaps you could give us your own qualificaitons? can i check you speak Hebrew and Greek? I went to a hebrew school and my studied helped to turn me into an athiest. . I'm not a scholar, I'm a pastor. I have a Bachelor's degree in Bible and Pastoral Ministries from Mid America Christian Univ. I have Masters in Theology from Southern Nazarene Univ. I'm within one month of finishing my second Masters in Family Therapy. I took Koine Greek and Hebrew, but I do not speak either language conversationally (hard to do since Koine Greek is a "dead" language). I can read a Greek NT and I have a better understanding of the depth that the original language of the Bible has over translations. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #592 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement? "I" wouldn't bet "my" eternal life on it. you god folk are a wriggly bunch, stop dodging my question ...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #593 August 24, 2007 You're asking me to answer a question only God can answer. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #594 August 24, 2007 Quote You're asking me to answer a question only God can answer. No, Im asking you a question that you can answer… based on your you belief is my statement a fair one to assume...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #595 August 24, 2007 As I tried to say, "I" would not make that same assumption. But let's say I thought you were right in your assumption. What does that matter? NOTHING. The part about God being fair and merciful is based on HIS perfect understanding of what knowledge and experiences you had, not based on what experiences and knowledge either you or I thought you had. EDITED TO ADD A VERSE: Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites br0k3n 0 #596 August 24, 2007 QuoteAs I tried to say, "I" would not make that same assumption. But let's say I thought you were right in your assumption. What does that matter? NOTHING. The part about God being fair and merciful is based on HIS perfect understanding of what knowledge and experiences you had, not based on what experiences and knowledge either you or I thought you had. EDITED TO ADD A VERSE: Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. So those who fail to see evidence of God's existence are "without excuse”, this means that god can be found through reason alone….. however Job 11:7 clearly contradicts this “Canst thou by searching find out God?. “ If I’m right in my assumption then it undermines everything about Christianity to a degree, god will understand why I do not believe in him, after all, old Thomas needed to see him in the flesh before he would believe he was risen, so im just that same.. Therefore I can live my life sinning away merrily and at the end if ive got I all wrong and im stood at the pearly gates, god will say “I understand why you were non believer, and in my infinite mercifulness I forgive you, now come in, collect your wings and harp from old Gabriel here and have a great time, glad to have you on board”.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #597 August 24, 2007 "Phil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this." It doesnt takeme much time to write these posts . My job invovles a lot of waiting for stuff to happen so I have nothing better to do there. But I do assure you i do have a life outside of Speakers Corner. "If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. " Because religion has such a negative influence on society and I care about the world we live in.I also enjoy intelllectual debate. I presume thats why your here as well. Whast wrong with that? "And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist." I agre there matter and energy cannot be destroyed ( except in a vacum fluctuation where matter pops in and out of existence all the time). But that does not mean it cant change form and it has no impliation at all for whether we can change from being consicous to not conscious. All the evidence we have points to consciousness being result of brain actiivity so no brain activity = no cosnciousness therefore death is the end. I would love it if death were not the end, but im intellectaully honest enough to realise that doesnt make it so. "I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. " Yes you can say whatever you like that doesnt mean it isnt a meaningless statement. Im the one who only accepts claims if they have evidence to back them up, you believes in things without any evidence at all. I think you need to reconsider your definition at faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #598 August 24, 2007 "Does that mean the arguments of scientist who disagree on the cause of global warming fall apart? " That would be a very valid criticism if those who made claims about global warming did so purely on the grounds of authority as you did and not on the grounds of evidence. However people claiming CO2 for example is causing climate change do so on the grounds of evidence, not simply authroity. So your comparison is a straw man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #599 August 24, 2007 "Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? " There is a huge difference here. People who make claims that have relevance to how we all live our lives need to back those claims up with evidence. I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, it does matter whetther the claims of religion are true or false; it matter a lot in fact. Whether or not you love your wife is of little interest to the rest of the world and so it doesnt matter whether you have evidence or not. That is not the same with god, your claims do matter and so yes you do need evidence. Quite frankly Im sure if we really had to find evidenc for the love of your wife, we could probably do so in terms of your behaviour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #600 August 24, 2007 QuoteSure, I could be wrong, but what evidence will you present to make me change my mind? What evidence can I produce? Can I produce evidence that Santa Claus doesn't exist? What about the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot? It's an easy escape for you to say "prove it" whenever someone says god doesn't exist because you and I both know that it's quite impossible. You do know that it's impossible? All I can do is to show you the flaws in the evidence you use to prove god does exist. People do that in threads like these ad nauseum and theists always dodge and weasle their way out eventually falling back to that impenetrable barrier of delusion called faith. As long as theists take faith over rationalism, even discussing it is a complete waste of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Next Page 24 of 49 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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maadmax 0 #580 August 24, 2007 Phil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this. If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist. As things stand right now, no one has any idea what fuels and drives the self consciousness that defines our being ( Soul) . You may say its a function of the electrical activity along neurons, dendrites, synaspes, involving neurotransmitters, & glial cells, all occurring in the proper physiological environment. I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #581 August 24, 2007 You need more then passages from a book that can not be verified to convince me. All of your "evidence" is in one book. That isn't much at all and all it means is that someone wrote words on paper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #582 August 24, 2007 QuotePhil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this. If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist. As things stand right now, no one has any idea what fuels and drives the self consciousness that defines our being ( Soul) . You may say its a function of the electrical activity along neurons, dendrites, synaspes, involving neurotransmitters, & glial cells, all occurring in the proper physiological environment. I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. There is no evidence of life after death. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #583 August 24, 2007 QuoteQuote It is impossible to prove or show evidence that something does not exist. You can only do so through the lack of evidence. If there is no evidence of something then the only reasonable conclusion is that it doesn't exist. You have no scientific evidence (that is the only kind of evidence) that god exists therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is that god does not exist due to a lack of evidence. That doesn't work for me. This does though ... John 20:27 - 29 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." [empahsis mine] Of course it doesn’t work for you, Steve, its just cop out after cop out to try and defend you belief… you simply cannot deny the fact that the “complete and utter” lack of any scientific evidence can only be interpreted as there is no god. Until evidence is found this is the only logical position. As I understand John20 tells us about “doubting Thomas” who refused to believe until he saw JC in the flesh. The “blessed are those who have not seen me” refers to the fact that you and I don’t have the benefit of seeing and hearing the resurrected Christ the way Thomas, Mary, John, and the other disciples did. You and I are called upon to believe without seeing. Now unfortunately this method of “believing without seeing” is just not acceptable to science, where do you think we would be today if this methodology was used. Science is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system???----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #584 August 24, 2007 QuotePhil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this. If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist. As things stand right now, no one has any idea what fuels and drives the self consciousness that defines our being ( Soul) . You may say its a function of the electrical activity along neurons, dendrites, synaspes, involving neurotransmitters, & glial cells, all occurring in the proper physiological environment. I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. Currently based on all known scientific evidence, the logical and only conclusion is that there is no life after death. If you have evidence otherwise then please share it...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #585 August 24, 2007 Quote'The one's i personally respect are thge ones that went to colleges & unviversities to gather greater insight. ' But the people who went to college to study the bible, they dont agree on the bible so your argument falls apart.. Does that mean the arguments of scientist who disagree on the cause of global warming fall apart? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #586 August 24, 2007 QuoteScience is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system??? Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #587 August 24, 2007 Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #588 August 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteScience is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning, the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses. This method is the cornerstone of modern understanding, you cant simply dismiss it because it fails to fit your belief system??? Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? You miss the point again, whilst you might not be able to "measure" love, you could certainly using "scientific method" prove that it exists.. (May 31, 2005) A team led by a neuroscientist, an anthropologist and a social psychologist found love-related neurophysiological systems inside a magnetic resonance imaging machine. They detected quantifiable love responses in the brains of 17 young men and women who each described themselves as being newly and madly in love.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #589 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #590 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement? "I" wouldn't bet "my" eternal life on it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #591 August 24, 2007 QuoteThese are a few examples of people who have studied the bible at least as well as you have and have come to the conclusion its all rubbish. So im afriad to say studying the bible does not guarantee one wil come out with your views. I never said you would. What I did say if you had the exegetical knowledge of a Bible College freshman you most likely wouldn't take Isaiah's proclamation to Cyrus out of context to make an exclusive statement about God. QuotePerhaps you could give us your own qualificaitons? can i check you speak Hebrew and Greek? I went to a hebrew school and my studied helped to turn me into an athiest. . I'm not a scholar, I'm a pastor. I have a Bachelor's degree in Bible and Pastoral Ministries from Mid America Christian Univ. I have Masters in Theology from Southern Nazarene Univ. I'm within one month of finishing my second Masters in Family Therapy. I took Koine Greek and Hebrew, but I do not speak either language conversationally (hard to do since Koine Greek is a "dead" language). I can read a Greek NT and I have a better understanding of the depth that the original language of the Bible has over translations. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #592 August 24, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Knowledge is defined (Oxford English Dictionary) variously as (i) facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education So in my case, im safe either way, as my “knowledge” through education, experience, information and facts is that there is no god/gods, however if I have got it wrong then your god being fair and merciful will understand and forgive me… That is what you are betting on. And you said you weren't betting on anything. It was a retorical question.. so do you agree its a fair statement? "I" wouldn't bet "my" eternal life on it. you god folk are a wriggly bunch, stop dodging my question ...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #593 August 24, 2007 You're asking me to answer a question only God can answer. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #594 August 24, 2007 Quote You're asking me to answer a question only God can answer. No, Im asking you a question that you can answer… based on your you belief is my statement a fair one to assume...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #595 August 24, 2007 As I tried to say, "I" would not make that same assumption. But let's say I thought you were right in your assumption. What does that matter? NOTHING. The part about God being fair and merciful is based on HIS perfect understanding of what knowledge and experiences you had, not based on what experiences and knowledge either you or I thought you had. EDITED TO ADD A VERSE: Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #596 August 24, 2007 QuoteAs I tried to say, "I" would not make that same assumption. But let's say I thought you were right in your assumption. What does that matter? NOTHING. The part about God being fair and merciful is based on HIS perfect understanding of what knowledge and experiences you had, not based on what experiences and knowledge either you or I thought you had. EDITED TO ADD A VERSE: Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. So those who fail to see evidence of God's existence are "without excuse”, this means that god can be found through reason alone….. however Job 11:7 clearly contradicts this “Canst thou by searching find out God?. “ If I’m right in my assumption then it undermines everything about Christianity to a degree, god will understand why I do not believe in him, after all, old Thomas needed to see him in the flesh before he would believe he was risen, so im just that same.. Therefore I can live my life sinning away merrily and at the end if ive got I all wrong and im stood at the pearly gates, god will say “I understand why you were non believer, and in my infinite mercifulness I forgive you, now come in, collect your wings and harp from old Gabriel here and have a great time, glad to have you on board”.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #597 August 24, 2007 "Phil you are one hell of an evangelist. Why do you put so much time and energy into this." It doesnt takeme much time to write these posts . My job invovles a lot of waiting for stuff to happen so I have nothing better to do there. But I do assure you i do have a life outside of Speakers Corner. "If we are so wrong and deluded why do you bother with us. " Because religion has such a negative influence on society and I care about the world we live in.I also enjoy intelllectual debate. I presume thats why your here as well. Whast wrong with that? "And to those of you who think death is it. How do you come to that conclusion? There is nothing in this universe that can cease to exist. Matter and energy can be changed but is can't cease to exist." I agre there matter and energy cannot be destroyed ( except in a vacum fluctuation where matter pops in and out of existence all the time). But that does not mean it cant change form and it has no impliation at all for whether we can change from being consicous to not conscious. All the evidence we have points to consciousness being result of brain actiivity so no brain activity = no cosnciousness therefore death is the end. I would love it if death were not the end, but im intellectaully honest enough to realise that doesnt make it so. "I say your degree of faith humbles me in comparison. " Yes you can say whatever you like that doesnt mean it isnt a meaningless statement. Im the one who only accepts claims if they have evidence to back them up, you believes in things without any evidence at all. I think you need to reconsider your definition at faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #598 August 24, 2007 "Does that mean the arguments of scientist who disagree on the cause of global warming fall apart? " That would be a very valid criticism if those who made claims about global warming did so purely on the grounds of authority as you did and not on the grounds of evidence. However people claiming CO2 for example is causing climate change do so on the grounds of evidence, not simply authroity. So your comparison is a straw man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #599 August 24, 2007 "Yes, but did I ever say faith in God is a science? My love for my wife and kids cannot be measured accurately with science. Does it not exist? " There is a huge difference here. People who make claims that have relevance to how we all live our lives need to back those claims up with evidence. I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, it does matter whetther the claims of religion are true or false; it matter a lot in fact. Whether or not you love your wife is of little interest to the rest of the world and so it doesnt matter whether you have evidence or not. That is not the same with god, your claims do matter and so yes you do need evidence. Quite frankly Im sure if we really had to find evidenc for the love of your wife, we could probably do so in terms of your behaviour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #600 August 24, 2007 QuoteSure, I could be wrong, but what evidence will you present to make me change my mind? What evidence can I produce? Can I produce evidence that Santa Claus doesn't exist? What about the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot? It's an easy escape for you to say "prove it" whenever someone says god doesn't exist because you and I both know that it's quite impossible. You do know that it's impossible? All I can do is to show you the flaws in the evidence you use to prove god does exist. People do that in threads like these ad nauseum and theists always dodge and weasle their way out eventually falling back to that impenetrable barrier of delusion called faith. As long as theists take faith over rationalism, even discussing it is a complete waste of time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
