jakee 1,593 #476 August 21, 2007 What I mean is, if someone likes me enough to die 'for' me, I wouldn't need JC any more, right? The other bloke would surely be enough to 'save' me.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #477 August 21, 2007 QuoteWhat really confuses me is that, according to Christianity, God is the one who set the rules, so he is the one who decided his son needed to die to save everyone, right? So, then everyone talks about it like it was this big sacrifice, when it wouldn't have happened at all unless God wanted it to happen, and if God wanted it to happen and decided it should happen, how is it a sacrifice at all? Most likely most of the theology you know or have read about is a calvinist theology where God has predetermined everything. They answer that by saying God knew we would fall and he set it up to redeem us. I have a Wesleyan arminian theology, that says God knows all our possible choices, but leaves the choices to us. Still the sacrifice of the Son is the act of a God who loves us with more love than I have. Even though I have a son serving in Afghanistan I cannot fathom sacrificing him for others. Especially when so many will not believe. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #478 August 21, 2007 QuoteWhat I mean is, if someone likes me enough to die 'for' me, I wouldn't need JC any more, right? The other bloke would surely be enough to 'save' me. A holy and perfect God would demand a holy and perfect sacriface. Your friend wouldn't fit that description, would he? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #479 August 21, 2007 Quote Throw in a bit of Trinitarian doctrine and you have a sure recipe for confusion. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #480 August 21, 2007 "Still the sacrifice of the Son is the act of a God who loves us with more love than I have. Even though I have a son serving in Afghanistan I cannot fathom sacrificing him for others. Especially when so many will not believe. " The blood sacrifice of the son is a sotry not just found in the JC myth. The founding father of Judaism, Islam and Chrsitianity was Abraham. He heard a voice form god and decided to kill his son too. Do you think this was a wise ac? If so how would you react if someone today sacrificed their son because they felt god told them too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #481 August 21, 2007 Quote"Still the sacrifice of the Son is the act of a God who loves us with more love than I have. Even though I have a son serving in Afghanistan I cannot fathom sacrificing him for others. Especially when so many will not believe. " The blood sacrifice of the son is a sotry not just found in the JC myth. The founding father of Judaism, Islam and Chrsitianity was Abraham. He heard a voice form god and decided to kill his son too. Do you think this was a wise ac? If so how would you react if someone today sacrificed their son because they felt god told them too? I don't fall into the fallacy of judging ancient people by the standards of the day. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #482 August 21, 2007 >I don't fall into the fallacy of judging ancient people by the standards of the day. Although, to be fair, religion is often about judging modern people by ancient standards. People who judge today's people by today's standards are often labeled "moral relativists" by religious types. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #483 August 21, 2007 yep, that can be a problem. However, I'm part of the solution, not the problem. Well, I guess that depends on whose side you are on. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #484 August 22, 2007 Do you feel that someone who does not believe in god is in any way lesser than those who are "blessed"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #485 August 22, 2007 no, not to me. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #486 August 22, 2007 wait is that sarcasism? ;) jk Would you concede that many, if not even a majority of those who are highly religious do? (Use your own judgement as to what is *highly*) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #487 August 22, 2007 truthfully, I think most Christians believe we are all the same as far "being good". Beinga Christian isn't about being a person God likes better. It is about choosing to follow what we feel is God's leading through scripture, and the teachings of JC steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #488 August 22, 2007 Whoa... wait. Im not asking what god would think... I am asking what human, living, breathing, fallible humans think... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #489 August 22, 2007 That is what they should think. As to what they think ... I don't play that game. I don't know what ANYONE else thinks. Surely some act like they think they ar ebetter. they shouldn't. Galatians 6:3-4 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Derekbox 0 #490 August 22, 2007 QuoteSurely some act like they think they ar ebetter. Thats what i was looking for. My point being that the "we are better" attitude, I feel, by and in large is responsible for so many issues this world has faced. *my god is better than yours* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #491 August 22, 2007 I agree -- obviously that is not what Christ intended for his followers to do. Or as Paul put it ... Romans 12;3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #492 August 22, 2007 "I don't fall into the fallacy of judging ancient people by the standards of the day. " Thats interesting, so you must agree then that there are no moral aboslutes? After all if you cant bring yourself to say murdering your son is wrong in an absolute sense then what is? So you wont say whether attempting to murder your son becuase a voice in you head says so was wise for an ancient person or not. Fair enough, but I also asked you whether you would do it; interesting how you dogded the question.So Ill ask it again: If you heard a voie you belived to be god and it told you to kill your son, would you do it? If not please explain how this circumstance would be any different to the story of Abraham. Of course we dont know if this story is true or not . But it has a moral message. The message appears to be obey any religious command no matter how ridiculous or evil sounding. That moral messsage is one reaosn why we should not use the bible as our main source for morality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #493 August 22, 2007 "JC, although divine, was fully human " or phrased another way JC although a perfect circle also had many straight lines and righht angles. Come one, who are you kidding? if you cant see the conradiction between JC being fully human and also divine then you will never ever see a contradiction. Think about it, if he was divin his sacrificce was no big deal. Why should an immortal being be concerned about giving up a mortal life? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #494 August 22, 2007 Quoteit, if he was divin his sacrificce was no big deal. Why should an immortal being be concerned about giving up a mortal life? JC's sacrifice has less to do with the horrible way he died (crucifiction) than the fact he (a sinless man) carried the weight of sin. If you studied soteriology you'd understand. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,593 #495 August 22, 2007 QuoteJC's sacrifice has less to do with the horrible way he died (crucifiction) than the fact he (a sinless man) carried the weight of sin. How? Did he suffer the punishment that would otherwise be given to a sinful man - not mortal death but an eternity in hell?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #496 August 22, 2007 "If you studied soteriology you'd understand. " or "if if you studied fairology youd understand" how fairies really do live in the bottom ofthe garden. Now forgive me if I dont spend years of my life studying fairies or soteriology. Ive read the main Christian authors Mcdowell,Lewis, Plantiga and that will have to do. They make no sense either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #497 August 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteJC's sacrifice has less to do with the horrible way he died (crucifiction) than the fact he (a sinless man) carried the weight of sin. How? Did he suffer the punishment that would otherwise be given to a sinful man - not mortal death but an eternity in hell? Like I said with Phil. You are trying to make a complex subject, soteriology, too simple. It cannot be laid out in a thread on a forum. Also, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,593 #498 August 22, 2007 QuoteAlso, while it is fun at times to debate I realize according to scripture true atheists will never see God unless they change their world view and core belief to open themselves up for the "possibility" of God's existence. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him I'm sorry Steve, but that's a complete cop-out. When people say "You cant understand God's logic unless you accept him" all I hear is "I know that these concepts don't actually make sense, but I believe strongly enough that it doesn't matter."Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #499 August 22, 2007 Why is it a cop out? You don't believe he exists so you will disallow everything he can do to show you he does exist, just as a fundy christian disallows everything science shows him that the earth is older than 6,000 years. no? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,593 #500 August 22, 2007 QuoteWhy is it a cop out? You don't believe he exists so you will disallow everything he can do to show you he does exist, just as a fundy christian disallows everything science shows him that the earth is older than 6,000 years. no? No, whether I believe or not has no bearing on whether I can accept the internal logic of the system. The simple truth is that I have never, ever heard an explanation of why Jesus' sacrifice was either a) required or b) effective that did not, at some point, involve a variation of the phrase "You can't understand unless you believe" or "God's logic doesn't make sense to humans".Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
