jakee 1,586 #201 August 10, 2007 Quote Quote According to you, your God created us unable to live without sinning and then holds us responsible for sinning. Nice God ... According to the Bible and not me, your God created you as a moral agent capable of relationship. He created you with the ability to choose right from wrong. He imprinted on your heart what is right. You choose to do wrong. You also choose to reject the lifeline that He has thrown you. So it is possible for me to live up to god's standard of goodness? You seem to be going a little off message here Paj.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,586 #202 August 10, 2007 QuoteThe problem with these threads are that the anti-religious folks are going onto a thread on the internet and asking for answers that can fit onto an internet post. They want spiritual truths that can fit on a bumpersticker. I am afraid you seem to have misunderstood the motives of the "anti-religious". I don't mean to be rude, but I do not for one second believe that you or anyone else on these boards has any "spiritual truth" to offer me.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #203 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhile that may be true, what you believe is not as relevant as what is true. No judging going on there! Your words have less relevance to "what is true" than any other I've ever seen here (save Chuteless). What exactly are you referring to? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #204 August 10, 2007 QuoteWell, no. And you keep saying God "programmed" us. Actually, God created us in his image. That means that we have free will and an intellect. As for the problem of sin, well, yes, in theory God could have made us so that we would never choose to sin. But he didn't. Because that would mean we would be a race of organic automatons. Organic automatons who might never actually do anything sinful, but would also be incapable of love (and without free will, we would not be made in the image of God at all) There is suffering in the world because of human beings choosing to sin. That's the price we (and God) pays for us having the capacity to choose at all. Have you read the entire thread? I was not making statements about what God did or did not do, I was using the statements that other people made about what their God did or did not do. MY QUESTION HAS BEEN WHY A PERSON WORSHIPS INSTEAD OF DENIES A GOD THAT ACCORDING TO THEM DID SOMETHING THAT IF A PERSON DID THEY WOULD DENY THE PERSON!"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #205 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe problem with these threads are that the anti-religious folks are going onto a thread on the internet and asking for answers that can fit onto an internet post. They want spiritual truths that can fit on a bumpersticker. I am afraid you seem to have misunderstood the motives of the "anti-religious". I don't mean to be rude, but I do not for one second believe that you or anyone else on these boards has any "spiritual truth" to offer me. But you have spiritual truths to offer other people, or what? Why are you posting here then, if not to exchange ideas or arrive at a conclusion one way or the other? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #206 August 10, 2007 Quote>what you believe is not as relevant as what is true. His beliefs are as relevant as yours in matters of faith. I did not say that his beliefs are less important than mine. What I meant was that belief in what is true is more important than simply what something might mean to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #207 August 10, 2007 QuoteSo it is possible for me to live up to god's standard of goodness? You tell me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #208 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuote>what you believe is not as relevant as what is true. His beliefs are as relevant as yours in matters of faith. I did not say that his beliefs are less important than mine. What I meant was that belief in what is true is more important than simply what something might mean to me. Since you cannot prove there is even a god out there then there is no way to know if what you believe is true or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #209 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo it is possible for me to live up to god's standard of goodness? You tell me. No, you tell us. It is your previous statements that it is not possible for us to meet the standards of your God that is the basis for many of my questions I have asked you. Are you now denying those statements? Edit: If so, then many of my questions have become null and void. If not, then my questions remain. Why do you accept a God that created standards and then created you without the possibility to meet the standards?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #210 August 10, 2007 QuoteSince you cannot prove there is even a god out there then there is no way to know if what you believe is true or not. Proving God's existence is easy. It doesn't even require religion or faith. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #211 August 10, 2007 Quote What exactly are you referring to? "What is true" is that mankind really does not have matter-of-fact information about things spiritual. There is only faith. So it seems to me that you, other devout Christians, Muslims, and some Atheists that purport to "know" the "truth" relegate yourselves to irellevance by closing your minds to what the "truth" might really be. It's like that know-it-all person we've all encountered -- since he thinks he already knows everything, he actually ends up knowing less than the person who maintains an open mind and a desire to learn. Apply that to things spiritual. Agnosticism -- it's the truly enlightened position because it matches reality. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #212 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteSince you cannot prove there is even a god out there then there is no way to know if what you believe is true or not. Proving God's existence is easy. It doesn't even require religion or faith. Oh ok Then please prove the existence of a god any god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,099 #213 August 10, 2007 >What I meant was that belief in what is true is more important >than simply what something might mean to me. Yes. And when it comes to matters of faith, your opinion on "true faith" (and other spiritual truths) is as valid as his. This is not true, of course, when it comes to science or history, and people often make the mistake of confusing faith with science or history. This leads to a lot of pointless arguments, the core of which is "I believe more strongly than you do" - which is not a useful argument to have with someone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #214 August 10, 2007 QuoteNo, you tell us. It is your previous statements that it is not possible for us to meet the standards of your God that is the basis for many of my questions I have asked you. Are you now denying those statements? Edit: If so, then many of my questions have become null and void. If not, then my questions remain. Why do you accept a God that created standards and then created you without the possibility to meet the standards? Your question has been answered many times and in many different ways. I can't make you but...read the thread dude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #215 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteSince you cannot prove there is even a god out there then there is no way to know if what you believe is true or not. Proving God's existence is easy. It doesn't even require religion or faith. Oh ok Then please prove the existence of a god any god. There's a whole other thread devoted to this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #216 August 10, 2007 And there has yet be evidence or proof of the existence of any god. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #217 August 10, 2007 QuoteYou're right in that it does not prove His existence like an experiment in a laboratory. Pajarito Spirtual proof is not proof of anything. Try taking that into court and you will lose. If doesn't work with the requirements of a laboratory then it isn't proof or evidence of anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #218 August 10, 2007 QuoteSpirtual proof is not proof of anything. Try taking that into court and you will lose. If doesn't work with the requirements of a laboratory then it isn't proof or evidence of anything. The Creation is not "spiritual proof." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #219 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteNo, you tell us. It is your previous statements that it is not possible for us to meet the standards of your God that is the basis for many of my questions I have asked you. Are you now denying those statements? Edit: If so, then many of my questions have become null and void. If not, then my questions remain. Why do you accept a God that created standards and then created you without the possibility to meet the standards? Your question has been answered many times and in many different ways. I can't make you but...read the thread dude. I have read the thread, dude. It appears as though you accept and worship your God because you believe your God exists and is the true God and commanded you to do so. There are some people who accept and worship Hitler because Hitler existed and commanded them to do so. Would you care to elaborate on why you accept your God, or is the reason that some people accept and worship Hitler good enough for you to accept and worship your God?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #220 August 10, 2007 QuoteI have read the thread, dude. It appears as though you accept and worship your God because you believe your God exists and is the true God and commanded you to do so. There are some people who accept and worship Hitler because Hitler existed and commanded them to do so. Would you care to elaborate on why you accept your God, or is the reason that some people accept and worship Hitler good enough for you to accept and worship your God? Did Hitler prove his divinity? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,586 #221 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe problem with these threads are that the anti-religious folks are going onto a thread on the internet and asking for answers that can fit onto an internet post. They want spiritual truths that can fit on a bumpersticker. I am afraid you seem to have misunderstood the motives of the "anti-religious". I don't mean to be rude, but I do not for one second believe that you or anyone else on these boards has any "spiritual truth" to offer me. But you have spiritual truths to offer other people, or what? Why are you posting here then, if not to exchange ideas or arrive at a conclusion one way or the other? Because I have never seen a rational argument for religion or the existence of God, and it amuses me to pick apart the irrational arguments that are presented.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #222 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteSpirtual proof is not proof of anything. Try taking that into court and you will lose. If doesn't work with the requirements of a laboratory then it isn't proof or evidence of anything. The Creation is not "spiritual proof." Creation isn't proof of a god or any god. How everything came to be here is unknown. Evolution is one theory which can be tested. God is a supposition that can not be tested and verified. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,586 #223 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo it is possible for me to live up to god's standard of goodness? You tell me. How should I know, it's your religion. Thing is, for as long as I've been reading your posts on this website (3 years?) you have always said that it is impossible for a human being to live up to Gods standard of goodness, which is why we need Jesus. But now (major paradigm shift) you're suddenly saying that we could live up to God's standard of goodness, we just choose not to! So seriously, which is it, or do you just not even see the contradiction?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #224 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteSpirtual proof is not proof of anything. Try taking that into court and you will lose. If doesn't work with the requirements of a laboratory then it isn't proof or evidence of anything. The Creation is not "spiritual proof." Creation isn't proof of a god or any god. How everything came to be here is unknown. Evolution is one theory which can be tested. God is a supposition that can not be tested and verified. The kind of evolution you're referring to is proof of squat but...again...that's in another thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #225 August 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo it is possible for me to live up to god's standard of goodness? You tell me. How should I know, it's your religion. You're not honest enough to admit whether you can or cannot for yourself? You know the standard whether you believe in it or not. QuoteThing is, for as long as I've been reading your posts on this website (3 years?) you have always said that it is impossible for a human being to live up to Gods standard of goodness, which is why we need Jesus. But now (major paradigm shift) you're suddenly saying that we could live up to God's standard of goodness, we just choose not to! So seriously, which is it, or do you just not even see the contradiction? You choose to not believe (repent & trust) in the Savior. I never said you could live up to God's standard of goodness even if you "chose" to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
