Addicted to the almighty

[georgerussia 0]

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What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself...

... and his wife as mine :)

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[jakee 1,594]

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Who amongst us is nuetral enough to make a law that doesn't lean in the favor of one group or another?

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No one. Which is why, to my knowledge, there is not and has never been a perfect set of laws.

I fail to see how this argument in any way supports your position.

What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."?

Well lets see now, just off the top of my head you've got the first four which are at best completely useless and at worst a catalyst for religious persecution and genocide.

Yeah, lets start with those.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[freethefly 6]

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What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself...

... and his wife as mine :)

Your going to Hell.
Hope you like snow.
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tips/getAttraction.php?tip_AttractionNo==2456

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[georgerussia 0]

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Your going to Hell.

There is no Hell.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Royd 0]

What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."?

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Well lets see now, just off the top of my head you've got the first four which are at best completely useless and at worst a catalyst for religious persecution and genocide.

Yeah, lets start with those.

What man or group of men, being prone to anger and impatience, as we all are, would make a law that comdemns him for an expletive? I wouldn't, would you?

[Royd 0]

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Marx and Engels aim was to make the working class the ruling class. In a communist society the worker is only a worker and has no say in society. The Stalinist perverted the ideas of Marx. The communist wanted full control over the people.

Herein lies the problem with true socialism. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone would give their all everyday for the common good.

The problem is someone just thinks that he's too good to dig a ditch,or do any kind of common labor, and creates for himself a job of telling others to dig the ditch. In the process, he believes himself to be elevated above the common man, and therefore, deserves a few more eggs or a nicer cut of meat.

Sort of like someone who serves one or two terms in Congress, and afterwards, draws a huge retirement.

I've said that the concept of anarchy is a misnomer.Someone always wants to be the big cheese.

[crwtom 0]

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So, let's see, he's gone from trusting God to keep his spirits up, to depending on psychiatrists, psycologists and drugs. Good choice! I wonder if that's going to cost him more than the tithe.

proves that god's the better dope?

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[crwtom 0]

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What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."?

I don't particularly trust people who need to be commanded
to be compasionate and considerate to others ...

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[crwtom 0]

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Christianity and captialism both give a person the hope of better things to come.

every read the "Death of a Salesman" ... lotsa hoping in there but
not a life for me ...

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[philh 0]

"I would argue that believing that you were created by God and you have been given specific gifts, talents and drives that you will rise to your place in life. Some people run a small business, and work a 10 hr. day, and are happy. Others have the drive to run a large company. "

if you have evidence that atheists in our Western society do not behave in a similar way to theists with respect to their economic relations; that they dont run small businesses or work long hours please present it. if you dont have evidence then your silly assertion should be seen in the same light as so many other religious assertions which are simply stated without supporting evidence. they are equally worthy of our ridicule.

"Socialist thinking takes the fruits of a man's efforts away from him and gives it to someone else who has not earned it. How does that fit in with the laws of natural selection? "

You appear to be incredibly ignorant of economic.
theory. Socialism is the desire of redistributing economic wealth to the workers, the complete opposite of how you have defined it. Now in reality there are different ways in which this may be acheived. In my opinion none of them work and all of them lead to an inferior economic systems to free markets.

You seem to have not understood the link between market economics and evolution/creation debate. So I will be patient and explain it all over again.

In socialism the deisre to redistribute wealth means someone has to redistrbute it. During the first part of the 20th century there arose ( from this socialist and also fascist ideas) the belief that modern economies had grown too complex to be left to Adam Smiths "invisible hand" . The perceived solution to this was that the government would have to plan the economy centrally. This idea that complex interactive systems cannot self organisse is exactly the idea that creationsists suggest. Both economic system and biological systems increase effeciency by a process of decentralised selection.Many of the same models , for example - game theory- are being used by economists and biologists. If you wlike to understand more I reccomend the Journal of Evolutionary Economics, you can see here:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/xm875754w585/?p=4ab9d47e6b254ddf874c596f67365c8b&pi=1

In case this is all over your head. I would asky you a simple question:
Can complex systems lead to spontaneous order and high levels of effeciency without a central intelligent agent?

If the answer is no you are effectivley condeming market economics, if the answer is yes you are condeming creationsism, so chose.

[jakee 1,594]

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What problems do you find with the Ten commandments, or this one, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."?

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Well lets see now, just off the top of my head you've got the first four which are at best completely useless and at worst a catalyst for religious persecution and genocide.

Yeah, lets start with those.

What man or group of men, being prone to anger and impatience, as we all are, would make a law that comdemns him for an expletive? I wouldn't, would you?

People who want to maintain the power of the (religious based) system over the lives of its subjects. Again, you don't need to be omniscient to work this stuff out.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,594]

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If Christianity is challenged there is only one logical outcome...

Fundamentalist-Atheist thinking right there.

"In spiritual matters, OF COURSE any rational thinking person could ONLY arrive at the same conclusions I have!"

Would you extend this same level of scorn to those who dismiss other religions? What about those who dismiss the existence of witches? Father Christmas? Elves and Unicorns? Or is it just your brand of magic that gets protected?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Squeak 17]

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I think it is better to take both views before making that decision don't you?

Yes.

Is that like a God Fearing Athiest

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[juanesky 0]

You forgot to mention lots of time wasted. DO you also hate Charley or his son too?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[freethefly 6]

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Your going to Hell.

There is no Hell.

Sure there is. The link I provided take you to Hell, Mi..

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[georgerussia 0]

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Sure there is. The link I provided take you to Hell, Mi..

My anti-virus blocked it. Therefore I'm now saved from the Hell for eternity. And no Jesus needed.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[br0k3n 0]

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If Christianity is challenged there is only one logical outcome...

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Fundamentalist-Atheist thinking right there.

Not at all, I’m afraid that you can’t just simply dismiss it that easily, Christianity makes a claim that is completely unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. Therefore any rationale, logical, educated individual who challenges it can only but come up with one outcome.

And besides are you telling me that 1.2 Billion Muslims have got it wrong? And you have got it right… oh please…

Now ill admit this is as of today, now if someone digs up the Holy Grail, or Noahs Ark tomorrow then of course we might be looking at a different outcome, but im afraid as we stand today in August 2007, Christianity does not stand up to being challenged, that is simply FACT, end of story…. You just are unable to dispute that…why do you think they call it “Faith” because there is NO evidence….

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"In spiritual matters, OF COURSE any rational thinking person could ONLY arrive at the same conclusions I have!"

Not sure what your point is here, so ill skip it all, unless you can reiterate.

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What exactly have you done to "Challenge" ideas to arrive at your faith thoughtfully????

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More than I could explain on a skydiving web forum.

But I could recommend some good books if you're really interested.

Not the “bible” by any chance…

I think you have done very little if anything at all to challenge Christianity, now that might be a bold statement, but lets ill give you the benefit of the doubt. Now as you say you have done more then you can explain on a forum, but how about perhaps you give us one piece of evidence that you came across that you would say weighed heavily in your decision making process to except Christianity…

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[maadmax 0]

Christian teaching is the means to dismantle the self-deification instinct we all possess. This instinct confuses, and makes us think we can create our own view of the absolutes of Good and Evil. The process of self-denial (i.e) humility , is the pathway to the peace that surpasses understanding.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.

[georgerussia 0]

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Christian teaching is the means to dismantle the self-deification instinct we all possess. This instinct confuses, and makes us think we can create our own view of the absolutes of Good and Evil. The process of self-denial (i.e) humility , is the pathway to the peace that surpasses understanding.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.

The only problem is that after two thousand(!) years of discussion, even the Christians still cannot agree on what the Truth really is. So we now have catholics, protestants, mormons, eastern orthodox, baptists, Jehova witnesses - and while all of them are Christians, they are still different. Unfortunately they still cannot decide which religion is the only right, so there is no way to know the Truth just by following some branch.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[juanesky 0]

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Christian teaching is the means to dismantle the self-deification instinct we all possess. This instinct confuses, and makes us think we can create our own view of the absolutes of Good and Evil. The process of self-denial (i.e) humility , is the pathway to the peace that surpasses understanding.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.

Didn't you get the memo? Anyone instilling any religous values to your family is a very ignorant person according to many in here. They have come up with a magical conclusion with a solution fits all scenario kind of a deal. They call anyone either christian or catholic, just a bigot. It's ok to be muslim according to the same crowd. No other religion is even mentioned.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[philh 0]

If Chrsitianity leads us to recognise some kind of absolute good and evil why do they not agree on moral issue?

Some Chrsitians defended slavery and others opposed it.
Some Chrsitians suppurted the Nazis and others opposed it.

Look at many of the moral isues that arise today:
Stem cell research, gay rights, abortion , the war in Iraq etc etc You will find Christians on both sides of the debate - if there is such a thing as recongising absolute good and evil Christianity is no necessary root to it.

[pajarito 0]

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The only problem is that after two thousand(!) years of discussion, even the Christians still cannot agree on what the Truth really is. So we now have catholics, protestants, mormons, eastern orthodox, baptists, Jehova witnesses - and while all of them are Christians, they are still different. Unfortunately they still cannot decide which religion is the only right, so there is no way to know the Truth just by following some branch.

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"Why are there so many denominations?"

In the early 1500s, a German monk named Martin Luther was so conscious of his sins that he spent up to six hours in the confessional. Through study of the Scriptures he found that salvation didn’t come through anything he did, but simply through trusting in the finished work of the cross of Jesus Christ. He listed the contradictions between what the Scriptures said and what his church taught, and nailed his "95 Theses" to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany. Martin Luther became the first to "protest" against the Roman church, and thus he became the father of the Protestant church.

Since that split, there have been many disagreements about how much water one should baptize with, how to sing what and why, who should govern who, etc., causing thousands of splinter groups. Many of these groups are convinced that they alone are right. These have become known as Protestant "denominations."

Despite the confusion, these churches subscribe to certain foundational beliefs such as the deity, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Bible says, "The foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19). Thomas Jefferson once wrote of a preacher, Richard Mote, who "exclaimed aloud to his congregation that he did not believe there was a Quaker, Presbyterian, Methodist, or Baptist in heaven, having paused to give his hearers time to stare and to wonder. He added that, in heaven, God knew no distinctions."

--The Evidence Bible compiled by Ray Comfort

[Royd 0]

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If Chrsitianity leads us to recognise some kind of absolute good and evil why do they not agree on moral issue?

Some Chrsitians defended slavery and others opposed it.
Some Chrsitians suppurted the Nazis and others opposed it.

Look at many of the moral isues that arise today:
Stem cell research, gay rights, abortion , the war in Iraq etc etc You will find Christians on both sides of the debate - if there is such a thing as recongising absolute good and evil Christianity is no necessary root to it.

I guess we're not sheeple, after all.

[pajarito 0]

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I do. However I do not force anyone else to act, and I do not judge their acts according to MY conscience. After all, people are born and grown up in different cultures, and if you were born in some African tribe, your conscience would tell you that eating your enemies is absolutely right thing to do.

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The culture you grow up in does influence your morals. However, motive is very important when judging right from wrong. Some Native American tribes didn’t consider taking something from a neighbor to be stealing. They considered possessions to belong to everyone. That probably would not be considered theft based on their intent and how it was not an offense to someone else. In your example above, cannibalism isn’t one of the Ten Commandments that we we're talking about. However, they might not do it if they were living by the “treat others how you would want to be treated” (which along with love the Lord your God with all your heart, strength, mind, and soul summarizes the Ten Commandments). They certainly wouldn’t murder (killing is different based on circumstance).

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Have you ever broken the speed limit?

Yes. Recently. I got a hefty ticket. I don’t plan to contest it, however, because I know I was wrong. I knew it when I did it.

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What is it inside you that tells you that you aught to do or not do something even if it may not be in your best interest but may help someone else?

This is called education and experience.

I thought you said above that you did have a conscience. Are you saying that doesn’t play a part in telling you right from wrong?

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From your parents and society. Again, some time ago a lot of Christians didn't have any problem with having slaves, killing and torturing non-Christians to death, and lying to us.

And they did it without following the Moral Law that we’re discussing.

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So you're saying that one hundred years ago your God communicated with you that it is acceptable to discriminate against some races, and now the God tells us different?

No.

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Nope, the Moral law is result of society, it depends on society, and differs between societies. Even with basic things like "Thou shall not murder" - while almost every society protects its members, some societies do not expand this protection outside their members, and some societies even teach that it is not only acceptable, but also desirable to murder the people who have different beliefs, and that it is the only way to go to Heaven.

Murder would not be acceptable to both parties involved. Murder, by definition, is an offense to the person murdered. Many in a society may do this, however, that still would not make it justifiable. “Murder” is universally wrong. Insanity may be a defense, however, that still does not make it right (whatever your culture).

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Even if you look through our society, you'll see that there is no single Moral law, and almost every individuum's moral is different. Ask the people's opinion about aborts, gay marriage, contraception, premartial sex, masturbation, euthanasia - and you'll see it yourself.

Here’s a summary of the Moral Law that we’re talking about.

1. Love God
2. Don’t worship something to suit yourself
3. Don’t take His name in vain
4. Remember the Sabbath
5. Honor your parents
6. Don’t murder
7. Don’t commit adultery
8. Don’t steal
9. Don’t lie
10. Don’t desire what belongs to another

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[Butters 0]

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1. Love God
2. Don’t worship something to suit yourself
3. Don’t take His name in vain
4. Remember the Sabbath

Why? What do these have to do with morals?

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5. Honor your parents

Should we honor our parents regardless if they are honorable?

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10. Don’t desire what belongs to another

Why? What does this have to do with morals? (Is it wrong to desire the relationship another has with God?)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch