Do you want Govt Health Care?

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Sorry if I get a bit emotional at times.

No worries, we all do. The point I am trying to make in all of this is the govt is not going to solve a damn thing. What happens when the govt after they get everybody on board starts to decide what kind of care you get. They will have complete control and you thought fighting the insurance companies was a pain in the ass. Try the govt. From the govt agencies I deal with on a daily basis most of them are so bloated with bureaucratic bullshit it is almost enough to put you in a institution. One comes to mind that everybody has to deal with and thats the IRS. Imagine your health care turning into a department like that. That is something I never want. I deal with the FAA a lot. The inspector himself is an alright guy but that department is a joke when it comes to getting things done and all the red tape you have to go through. TSA is a complete joke and should be shut down in my opinion. But thats for another thread. I want to govt to be as far away from my personal life as possible. They know to much as it is with all the background checks that I have been going through for my security access and customs badges. Just filling out the damn paperwork for that shit is enough to drive a man insane.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kelpdiver 2]

His main point is that insurance is only affordable so long as nothing happens to you, and/or you keep a job with an employer that provides group coverage. Once you fall off and the 18 months of COBRA expires, you're out of the system.

[freethefly 6]

Quote

bloated with bureaucratic bullshit

100%. And then those who are in need and cannot afford or not eligible for insurance are made to be the scapegoat. Redtape has put many returning injured men and women of the war on the backburner. Many have been flatout denied healthcare. The Army has taken it upon themselves to claim that some of the men and women were mentally ill before they got injured in war therefore the Army is not responsible. They were good enough to send to war but, nothing more than wastecases now that they are not useable. What should we do for those who are being denied when they clearly need help?
There are without doubt those who will try and bilk the system. They are prosecuted when they are discovered. Those being everyone from the scam artist to the doctor who bills for service not provided.
The system really is broken in that it has culminated into years of fraud and waste with near no one watching it. The checks and balances are far and in between. I do not want the government to be solely responsible but would like to see a real working relationship between the government and the private sector. There are ways to solve it if they only would listen to each other and be able to arrive at solutions that are workable. One side trying to push it all onto the other doesn't work. I do know that there are many fine doctors who honestly do care. Many, however, do throw thier hands up and exclaim that they are tied. And for good reason. If they go outside the boudaries set, they are out of a job. I don't really blame them for doing such. I blame the system that tied their hands. For that, also, the system is broken when a bureaucrat is in charge of your treatment then something is amiss. Put the doctors back in charge. Have a check and balance system that will assure us that some doctors are not bilking the system with overcharge. Weed out the insurance scam artist who are also responsible for the rise in cost. Most people are not there to scam but they get lumped in and it causes even more problems. Those with growing health concerns are least likely to be able to work. I can't work in a hot enviroment anymore as the heat does a wicked number on me. Standing for a period of time is painfull and the same goes with my legs arms and hands due to peripheral neuropathy. This was part of the reason to start a home business. That and that it is hard to get employment when you fail their physical. A bad hhealthcare system also gives way for homelessness, crime, drug abuse, alcoholism. The sense of helplessness stems from poor health. Many illnesses are preventable . My illness was preventable. Had I knew something about HIV, I would had been far more careful and would had made a better choice. The information just wasn't out there. If it was, it was not readily available to me. Education needs to be the frontline defence in lowering healthcare. Only in the last few years have we began seeing real information on HIV. In the past it was billed as a gay disease. It is not and now the information is being broadcast. It is great that people from all levels of society do come forward to tell their story. Maybe something that I posted made someone think first and kept them from contracting HIV. If so, then I helped to lower healthcare by keeping one person from making the same mistake that I did. The same can be said about warning people about junk food such as MacDonalds. Or providing info on alcohol and tobacco. Stay away from this stuff and save yourself from having to see a doctor in the future.
I have some ideas but I have no real answer to the growing problem that is sure to get worst. Hell, I'll be dead and gone long before anyone figures it out. And that's if anyone ever does.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

See, you cannot have health care that is: 1) high quality; 2) inexpensive; and 3) available on demand.

Are you under the impression that in the USA health care (especially major) is 'on demand'? I don't want to bust your bubble, but it is faaaaaar from it.

Emergency care IS available, as you say below.

Quote

I think that one way or the other, we end up paying for health care for the poor or less fortunate. Also, because they have no coverage, they clog emergency rooms when they go for high dollar care only when it becomes an emergency. They get treated, and cannot pay, or lose their home trying to pay. If they could see a doc, it would be cheaper, and keep them out of emergency.

You need to talk to more people in the medical field - specifically, those people working in the emergency rooms. There is a LARGE amount of people going to the ER for NON-emergent conditions and racking up a several hundred dollar ER bill, when the condition could have been treated with a $20 visit to a local care clinic.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

44 million American men, women and children do not have access to regular health care is a humerous, minor point to you?!?!?!?!

Of those 44 million ho wmany do you think CHOOSE not to get health insurance? How many do you think decide NOT to pay the amount per month? You know, instead opting to spend it on something else?

Ten years ago I was one of them. I would have cut into my beer fund. How foolish and stupid I was.

For people to have kids and NOT insure them is, to me, evil. To deny taking kids to the doctor because they did not insure the kids is despicable. Would you agree? Or is it society's job to take care of them? "It takes a village?" If it IS society then look in the mirror and blame yourself.

You're right of course. Let's continue to deny adequate health care to children because you don't approve of their parent. Why couldn't I see that?

Cast all the blame you want, millions of children are not receiving basic health care.

I see now why you make the big bucks.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

You're right of course. Let's continue to deny adequate health care to children because you don't approve of their parent. Why couldn't I see that?

Uh oh! She pulled the children card Lawrocket. Your now a heartless bastard who wants the poor to die!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

You're right of course. Let's continue to deny adequate health care to children because you don't approve of their parent. Why couldn't I see that?

Uh oh! She pulled the children card Lawrocket. Your now a heartless bastard who wants the poor to die!

He is what he is and you are what you are ...neither of you seem to care much beyond what's in it for you.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

He is what he is and you are what you are ...neither of you seem to care much beyond what's in it for you.

Thats right! I just want sick people to just die! Especialy the poor CHILDREN. As for whats in it for me, if you can promise me I will still have the same choice of care I have now and wont have to pay more than I am already I might listen to the side that promotes govt health. But me picking up part of the tab for others? Hell I cannot afford that. Hell I cannot even afford to buy a home where I am at. Find where I can pay more and I might listen.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

He is what he is and you are what you are ...neither of you seem to care much beyond what's in it for you.

Thats right! I just want sick people to just die! Especialy the poor CHILDREN. As for whats in it for me, if you can promise me I will still have the same choice of care I have now and wont have to pay more than I am already I might listen to the side that promotes govt health. But me picking up part of the tab for others? Hell I cannot afford that. Hell I cannot even afford to buy a home where I am at. Find where I can pay more and I might listen.

Yep, it's all about you.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Yep, it's all about you.

Well I'm glad we see eye to eye on that point then! That one thing we agree on.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Quote

This whole business of sidestepping the obvious, main point... and going off on a tangent about an inferred minor point...

44 million American men, women and children do not have access to regular health care is a humerous, minor point to you?!?!?!?!

WOW, that says a lot!

That you completely missed the point. DURRR



It's about reading comprehension.

Oh yeah, I'm not laughing about the uninsured Americans. Can you guess what (or who) I'm laughing at, now?

[pirana 0]

Quote

Sadly, while the World Health Organization (WHO), the organization that compiles the data, defines a live birth as any human being who demonstrates independent signs of life, the reality is that calculation of infant mortality varies widely by country. While the United States adheres to the WHO standard, many European countries and Japan only count as live births those infants that independently breathe at birth – which might seem like a small distinction but it has a huge impact on the reported numbers. Still other countries in that group deliberately exclude certain high risk births from the calculation. Thus, for purposes of comparison, either the data for the U.S. is significantly overstated or the data from most European countries in the sample is significantly understated.

What's that about sunlight being a good disinfectant?

That's a major problem in outcomes studies too. Until recently, most of the information was self-reported. The fudging was over the top. You can imagine the incentive a hospital administrator has to do whatever they can to massage or rationalize their numbers when reporting death rates for cardiac patients. It was a hide and seek game for them, with all kinds of loosely defined terms and accomodations for this factor and that factor. You've really got to find out what their methodology is before giving their numbers any credence.

For 20 years we've had data that show widely varying efficacy of treatment at different providers. After hearing all the sob stories of why all the low performers were so freaking special and finally getting all factors accounted for it has still taken another decade to get to the point of establishing the right use that data.

I think the public has a right to know if you are 3 times more likely to die if you go into hospital X as a critical cardiac patient than if you go to hospital Y.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

You're right of course. Let's continue to deny adequate health care to children because you don't approve of their parent. Why couldn't I see that?

Uh oh! She pulled the children card Lawrocket. Your now a heartless bastard who wants the poor to die!

He is what he is and you are what you are ...neither of you seem to care much beyond what's in it for you.

Tell me something, sunshine. Why should anyone be forced to pay for the healthcare of strangers? How we (as a country) get to the point where people feel entitled to force others to foot the bill?

[pirana 0]

Quote

Just as we've seen many health management firms with a policy of rejecting all initial claims.

Is that just an over the top statement to make a point, or do you have an example of a company rejecting ALL initial claims. There may be some unscrupulous administrators engaged in unfair claims practices, but I'm not aware of any cases where ALL claims are rejected.

I've often heard that accusation, and it is laughable. We pass thru with no human intervention 80% of claims, with an average cycle time on that 80% of less than a week. Very few of those are rejections. Most denied claims require human action. Only the very simplest denials are automated - such as obvious duplicates; which account for the largest number of denials.

Again, there are exceptions, but the bulk of the horror storiues are either gross exxagerations, yellow journalism, or the occasional rare exception of a company run amok.

I do like the pothole fixing analogy. It speaks to my point that health care, and health care financing, needs to be not for profit.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NCclimber 0]

Quote

Quote

Just as we've seen many health management firms with a policy of rejecting all initial claims.

Again, there are exceptions, but the bulk of the horror storiues are either gross exxagerations, yellow journalism, or the occasional rare exception of a company run amok.

My experience with Celtic Life must have been one of those exceptions.

Pre-approved surgery, then it's being reviewed. That issue gets settle. Then it's being reviewed for something else. Six months later (after contacting them EVERY WEEK) my claims were processed... only after I asked if I needed to contact an attorney.

Had surgery last year. No problem. Blue Cross Blue Shield did me right.

[pirana 0]

Quote

I think the insurance industry will have the most to lose as that portion of your paycheck deduction will shrink.
As to whether you will get better or worse health care, the answer is -it depends. As a professional skydiver I have health care coverage here in Canada I would not be able to afford if I lived in US.

Whether or not you skydive almost certainly has nothing to do with health insurance premiums in the US. Since the regulation is largely at the state level, there may be an exception, but I know of none. Somebody show me a health insurance application that asks you to disclose that.

The big losers financially in any major revamp will be the providers; especially pharmacueticals. Someone will still need to administer plans. Even in a scenario where the government socializes the entire thing, who do you think will do the busywork of administration? Who do you think does the busy work of many of the government run programs today?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

Quote

Quote

90% of people who do not have insurance, qualify for Medicaid.

I'd be willing to bet that stat is waaaaay off. Do you have a source to back that up?

And as far as the hospital "absorbing" that cost, who do you think is really paying? That's right - you and me.

So why not just pay up front, and maybe pay for some preventative medicine and save in the long run?

That's another data point for which it is very challenging to get good information (mostly because everybody has an agenda). It is usually exxagerated. For one thing, there is a pretty good chunk of young invincibles that do not buy even though they can afford, and many that can't afford but wouldn't but if they did have the money. Then there are the poor, and it is true that almost everybody below a certain income level is Medicaid qualified - and many do not take advantage.

It's funny to see the hard core left wingers pushing their universal coverage agenda in Minnesota and then having to embarrassing admit how few people in that state are truly seeking insurance but can not afford it.

Kind of like unemployment numbers. Between those that do not want a job, and those in transition you can look at 3% unemployment as full employment.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[NCclimber 0]

Here's an interesting read on the number of uninsured Americans:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

Quote

So what is the true extent of the uninsured “crisis?” The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.

Kaiser’s 8.2 million figure for the chronically uninsured only includes those uninsured for two years or more. It is also worth noting, that, 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Is this issue really about 15% of the population? Or is it about 3% of the population?

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Here's an interesting read on the number of uninsured Americans:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

Quote

So what is the true extent of the uninsured “crisis?” The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.

Kaiser’s 8.2 million figure for the chronically uninsured only includes those uninsured for two years or more. It is also worth noting, that, 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Is this issue really about 15% of the population? Or is it about 3% of the population?

Niether IMO. this is about creation of another gov program to grab money and power. The more money that goew through Washington the easier it is to skim off a little with out being noticed!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Tell me something, sunshine. Why should anyone be forced to pay for the healthcare of strangers? ?

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Here's an interesting read on the number of uninsured Americans:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

Quote

So what is the true extent of the uninsured “crisis?” The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.

Kaiser’s 8.2 million figure for the chronically uninsured only includes those uninsured for two years or more. It is also worth noting, that, 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office.

Is this issue really about 15% of the population? Or is it about 3% of the population?

If it's only 3% then the cost of doing something for them will be negligible.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I'd far rather pay for the healthcare of a stranger (American) than be forced to pay for a war that we entered under false pretenses that has cost some $500Billion so far and killed over 3,000 Americans and countless others.

Hey, John, we're over here.

(In any case, it's a deal. Once the war is stopped, you voluntarily go and pay for procedures once a month. No one is stopped from going to the ER and paying for anyone they'd like to pay for. Just don't make it government run.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

I think that one way or the other, we end up paying for health care for the poor or less fortunate. Also, because they have no coverage, they clog emergency rooms when they go for high dollar care only when it becomes an emergency. They get treated, and cannot pay, or lose their home trying to pay. If they could see a doc, it would be cheaper, and keep them out of emergency.

This is BECAUSE health care is already socialist in the US. All the problems with costs, waits, etc., that people complain and gripe about are because of the socialism in it.

Health care ain't free, and yet the policy of the feds make it that way for many. Get the socialism out of it and perhaps we'd be better off. We wouldn't NEED this talk if the feds hadn't taken it over in the mid-60's.

It isn't socialist at all - it's an ad-hoc system patched together without any serious planning that distributes costs of treating the indigent in a fairly arbitrary way and provides highly heterogeneous quality.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

You're right of course. Let's continue to deny adequate health care to children because you don't approve of their parent. Why couldn't I see that?

Uh oh! She pulled the children card Lawrocket. Your now a heartless bastard who wants the poor to die!

He is what he is and you are what you are ...neither of you seem to care much beyond what's in it for you.

Tell me something, sunshine. Why should anyone be forced to pay for the healthcare of strangers? How we (as a country) get to the point where people feel entitled to force others to foot the bill?

If you have to ask, peon of darkness, any answer would be meaningless to you.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[TrophyHusband 0]

Quote

Quote

Tell me something, sunshine. Why should anyone be forced to pay for the healthcare of strangers? ?

I'd far rather pay for the healthcare of a stranger (American) than be forced to pay for a war that we entered under false pretenses that has cost some $500Billion so far and killed over 3,000 Americans and countless others.