1969912 0
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azdiver 0
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>1) Solar is inherently a "peaking" source. Its >output is highest on sunny summer days when >demand is highest. If it gets cloudy, demand goes >down.
My understanding from people who are closer to the problem than anyone else I personally am aquainted with is that the steadiness of alternatives is just not there yet. Consider Seattle in the winter time when it is overcast for 10 days in a row with 50 degree ambient air temp and rain. Solar effective power through the clouds is greatly reduced although power demand is close to the same as a sunny winter day.
>2) We are rapidly moving into real time TOU >metering and remote load shedding.
I would like to know more about this! Please elaborate.
>These other sources of power are not at this time steady enough to
>provide the high quality (steady voltage, current and frequency) . . .
>That's completely wrong. The solar inverter on my >house provides higher quality power than the power >I get from the grid.
My understanding from my power plant contacts (and I am seriously considering doing a solar system at my house because I think this is the REAL solution to the power problem we face as a nation) is that the systems like the one at your house are quite capable of producing high quality power on a small scale, but that it is not reproducible on a large scale at this time. What is your opinion of a nation of private, small solar systems all tied to the existing power grid?
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak
billvon 3,118
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>Those numbers are pretty impressive when you consider the cost overruns
>that have plagued new nuke plants.
Keep in mind that they are peak power. You will average about 6 hours a day peak power over the course of a year in the Mojave; 3.5 hours in someplace like Seattle.
>Along Hwy 58 in the Carrizo Plains there was a photovoltaic array
>(~6 MW) that ARCO built in the 70's. It was dismantled in the 90's
>because it was not cost effective.
It was actually dismantled in the late 80's - I bought a bunch of used panels from them! The problem was they were using concentrators on panels not designed for concentrators, so they "browned" - the EVA got too hot and turned yellowish-brown, which reduced the power they produced.
>that have plagued new nuke plants.
Keep in mind that they are peak power. You will average about 6 hours a day peak power over the course of a year in the Mojave; 3.5 hours in someplace like Seattle.
>Along Hwy 58 in the Carrizo Plains there was a photovoltaic array
>(~6 MW) that ARCO built in the 70's. It was dismantled in the 90's
>because it was not cost effective.
It was actually dismantled in the late 80's - I bought a bunch of used panels from them! The problem was they were using concentrators on panels not designed for concentrators, so they "browned" - the EVA got too hot and turned yellowish-brown, which reduced the power they produced.
billvon 3,118
>Consider Seattle in the winter time when it is overcast for 10 days in a
>row with 50 degree ambient air temp and rain. Solar effective power
>through the clouds is greatly reduced although power demand is close to
>the same as a sunny winter day.
Right. In Seattle microhydro and wind would likely be a better choice.
>I would like to know more about this! Please elaborate.
Demand goes up, utility sends out a signal to turn off your pool pump or AC compressor, and you get a lower rate per kwhr as a result. If you're home you can 'override' it for up to an hour at a time, but then you don't get the rate benefit.
>What is your opinion of a nation of private, small solar systems all tied to the existing power grid?
Well, that's definitely the way to go in places like LA and Phoenix. You don't have to increase generator _or_ grid capacity since the power is used close to where it's produced. There are definitely grid management issues when distributed power starts becoming a large chunk of the total power, but they can be dealt with pretty much the same way load shedding is.
>row with 50 degree ambient air temp and rain. Solar effective power
>through the clouds is greatly reduced although power demand is close to
>the same as a sunny winter day.
Right. In Seattle microhydro and wind would likely be a better choice.
>I would like to know more about this! Please elaborate.
Demand goes up, utility sends out a signal to turn off your pool pump or AC compressor, and you get a lower rate per kwhr as a result. If you're home you can 'override' it for up to an hour at a time, but then you don't get the rate benefit.
>What is your opinion of a nation of private, small solar systems all tied to the existing power grid?
Well, that's definitely the way to go in places like LA and Phoenix. You don't have to increase generator _or_ grid capacity since the power is used close to where it's produced. There are definitely grid management issues when distributed power starts becoming a large chunk of the total power, but they can be dealt with pretty much the same way load shedding is.
1969912 0
Yeah, I read something about the panels being damaged by the heat or UV. Was it the actual crystal that was cooked or just a replaceable coverglass?
Was the heat damage a big contributor to the termination of the facility?
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
Was the heat damage a big contributor to the termination of the facility?
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
billvon 3,118
>Was it the actual crystal that was cooked or just a replaceable coverglass?
The EVA encapsulant that 'glued' the cells to the glass. Not fixable.
>Was the heat damage a big contributor to the termination of the facility?
Yep. They had to take down the concentrators, which meant half the expected power, plus power loss from the yellowing . . . ended up producing something like 25% of expected power.
The EVA encapsulant that 'glued' the cells to the glass. Not fixable.
>Was the heat damage a big contributor to the termination of the facility?
Yep. They had to take down the concentrators, which meant half the expected power, plus power loss from the yellowing . . . ended up producing something like 25% of expected power.
78RATS 0
Hemp can save the world.
Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why
Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why
azdiver 0
but untill its cheaper to get the panels i wouldnt expect to see everyone rushing out to get them, i looked into getting them, it would cost me 50k to get a system that will power my house, thats one quarter of my houses value. money i would not likely get back if i sold the house.
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak
billvon 3,118
> but untill its cheaper to get the panels i wouldnt expect to see
>everyone rushing out to get them, i looked into getting them, it would
>cost me 50k to get a system that will power my house . . .
50K?? That's 30-40kwhr/day, or almost twice the US average! What are you running there?
In most cases the payback is much faster if you start with energy efficiency. Get your daily load down to 5kwhr/day (pretty easy to do) _then_ install solar. Then you're talking a $10K system.
>everyone rushing out to get them, i looked into getting them, it would
>cost me 50k to get a system that will power my house . . .
50K?? That's 30-40kwhr/day, or almost twice the US average! What are you running there?
In most cases the payback is much faster if you start with energy efficiency. Get your daily load down to 5kwhr/day (pretty easy to do) _then_ install solar. Then you're talking a $10K system.
pirana 0
Quotebut untill its cheaper to get the panels i wouldnt expect to see everyone rushing out to get them, i looked into getting them, it would cost me 50k to get a system that will power my house, thats one quarter of my houses value. money i would not likely get back if i sold the house.
I have to admit being an energy hog. We have pretty new and efficient applicances throughout, but the house is an older design (turn-of-the-century farmhouse) with all the usual gadgets (and then some). Paradoxically, I would no doubt need to add on to the house, or set up some pretty elaborate array of panels to get even close to meeting my energy needs.
A friend of mine very knowledgeable in the field helped me run numbers. It would not come even close to paying off in my lifetime. Have to leave it for the next owner of the property to knock it down and go modern.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
pirana 0
QuoteI am seriously considering doing a solar system at my house . . .
You must have one humongous family room!
Me and my friend Sladi VladBaast (sp?) are available if you need help with planet building. He's especially good with fjords.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley
rehmwa 2
??
Sladibastfart
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Sladibastfart
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
mnealtx 0
QuoteHemp can save the world.
*rolls eyes*
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
78RATS 0
*eyes open*
Relax. Not talking about weed. 
Hemp is among one of the most productive and useful plants known; also very safe.
The following materials can be made from hemp: paper, textiles, building materials, food, medicine, paint, detergent, varnish, oil, ink, and FUEL.
Unlike many crops, hemp can be grown in most locations and climates with only moderate water and fertilizer requirements. Where hemp is grown, it has become a valuable and environmentally friendly crop.
Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why
billvon 3,118
> ??
"considering doing a solar system at my house"
You know, solar system. Central G-class star, asteroids, cometary halo, several planets with atmospheres, magnetic fields, fjords . . .
"considering doing a solar system at my house"
You know, solar system. Central G-class star, asteroids, cometary halo, several planets with atmospheres, magnetic fields, fjords . . .
speaking of solar systems;
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1184907254/Never_Poll_the_Audience_on_the_French_Millionaire_Show
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1184907254/Never_Poll_the_Audience_on_the_French_Millionaire_Show
"Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives."
A. Sachs
A. Sachs
QuoteQuoteI am seriously considering doing a solar system at my house . . .
You must have one humongous family room!
Me and my friend Sladi VladBaast (sp?) are available if you need help with planet building. He's especially good with fjords.
LOL That does read kind if weird, huh? I actually did that on purpose to see if you would catch the double meaning, Pirana....
Just burning a hole in the sky.....
juanesky 0
Quotespeaking of solar systems;
http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1184907254/Never_Poll_the_Audience_on_the_French_Millionaire_Show
Now that really is some serious funny stuff. thx"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon
Those numbers are pretty impressive when you consider the cost overruns that have plagued new nuke plants. Westinghouse is talking about a construction cost of $1/W for their new AP-1000 1 GW design (in quantity). Assuming the real cost is closer to $2/kW, solar looks promising. Some rough calcs indicate that a 1GW photo array could fit in a ~6x6 mile area, which is not unreasonable.
A question: I used to drive from Cal Poly to Bakersfield every weekend during schoool to work in the oil fields. Along Hwy 58 in the Carrizo Plains there was a photovoltaic array (~6 MW) that ARCO built in the 70's. It was dismantled in the 90's because it was not cost effective. Do you know what the problem was? Is current technology likely to be cost effective (discounting cap costs)?
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
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