NCclimber 0 #26 July 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuotePersonally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's. Yes, if the waiting list is so long, then candidates will also pay higher tuition too in order to get into the field - this is immediate and local. Of course! Fuckin brilliant! People must be lined up outside your door seeking solutions to major problems. Classy - It WAS your idea I can see you standing outside a burning apartment building, muttering as people scream for help ... 'So what was tying up the natural economic market up to get us to this point? That's the real lesson to learn here. And the lesson learned needs to be applied in other areas so the gov doesn't HAVE to step in later - no matter how much some people love that.' ' I don't understand why we don't have trained firefighters to put out this blaze, afterall, I haven't seen the govt funding the effort in order to stifle firefighters becoming a profession of choice for those that want to be able to make a living at it.' ' ... and all these burned up bodies (bloody nuisance, really), I hope no one expects the government to assume the responsibility to dispose of them. A thriving free market economy should address this need. You socialists need to learn a lesson in reality!' Fries! I said fries, dude! You do paint a colorful picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #27 July 17, 2007 QuoteYou do paint a colorful picture. Some people aren't happy unless everything is an emotional crisis of biblical proportions. It's tribute to the never give up, never think things through attitude. The only muttering I've ever done outside a burning apartment is to the voices that told me to burn it in the first place. They just aren't happy with the one building, they always want another. Fries, dude, Fries isn't even the correct grammer. It's Fry, dudes, Fry. Or more clearly, Burn, trolls, burn! In any case, I'm less of a mutterer and more of a placard person. With sparklers. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #28 July 17, 2007 QuoteAll right, the parole board has received... Mr. Bartel's fitness report, his l.D. endorsement from his section warden. Dr. Norris? As supervising psychiatrist, I would describe... Mr. Bartel's progress as remarkable. Taking into account his disability and the six years... he's already served, I recommend a parole. Mr. Bartel, do you regret your crimes? Yes, and-- and I'm aware of the pain that I have caused. lf released, will you commit these crimes again? No. No, I won't. Do you consider yourself ready for society? Yes, I do. Yeah, right, Ronald. You're ready, all right. - Excuse me. - Excuse me. - Shadow. - Remember this? Remember this, Ronald? - Remember who it belonged to? - Mm-hmm. What did you do to that little girl? It's not fair, Shadow. What did you do to that little girl? I burned her. You burned her. What do you do to old ladies, Ronald? Burn them. And what about the world, Ronald? What would you like to do with the whole world? Burn it all. See ya next year, Ronald. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #29 July 17, 2007 Quote I'm...more of a placard person. With sparklers. Oooo, pretty.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #30 July 17, 2007 QuoteQuoteYou do paint a colorful picture. Some people aren't happy unless everything is an emotional crisis of biblical proportions. It's tribute to the never give up, never think things through attitude. Be sure and clean the grill before you close up. CYA----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #31 July 17, 2007 QuotePersonally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's. Spending money at the school level is part of the problem right now: there are a ton of people who want to be nurses, and a huge need for nurses. There is a palpable lack of nursing programs in our area, and one of the biggest problems is finding people willing to teach for community college-level pay. Most RN's are working three or four days a week making really good bank (ESPECIALLY the ones with enough experience to be decent teachers). Why would they bail on their sweet work schedule and fat paycheck to get paid peanuts to deal with rooms full of whiney college students who feel their having paid tuition should guarantee them a degree and a passing grade on the NCLEX? Elvisio "just got my RN, see ya!" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiver30960 0 #32 July 17, 2007 To interject a bit of the original thread, the reason we as a society are building law schools rather than nursing schools is that (while nurses do make good bank, relatively speaking) the school can siphon a HELLUVA lot more money out of a law school grad than they can a nursing school grad. Elvisio "we don't get paid THAT well" Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #33 July 18, 2007 Quote Quote Personally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's. Spending money at the school level is part of the problem right now: there are a ton of people who want to be nurses, and a huge need for nurses. There is a palpable lack of nursing programs in our area, and one of the biggest problems is finding people willing to teach for community college-level pay. Most RN's are working three or four days a week making really good bank (ESPECIALLY the ones with enough experience to be decent teachers). Why would they bail on their sweet work schedule and fat paycheck to get paid peanuts to deal with rooms full of whiney college students who feel their having paid tuition should guarantee them a degree and a passing grade on the NCLEX? Elvisio "just got my RN, see ya!" Rodriguez The availability of instructors is, indeed, a significant problem. Let me ask you this ...do the schools in your area have positions available for instructors? Are they beating the bushes looking for instructors? On a national level, the answer is no. Schools are not seeking additional instructors because they do not have the funding to hire them. That is certainly the case in South Florida. This is true at all levels, Voc Schools (LPN), Community College (ADN) or University (BSN). They all have extensive waiting lists of students. In all but private schools, a student (any academic program) only pays a percentage of the actual sticker price of their education (GASP! more demon socialish!). This varies from roughly 25% to 80% for residents of the states they enroll in so the the dither headed comments about raising tuition to hire more instructors is another 'solution' founded in ignorance. So, we have nursing schools, nationwide, with no positions available for instructors due to lack of funding, many mega-experienced nurses in their 50's (who are finding the physical demands of bedside nursing increasingly challenging) who would be quite eager to teach, and long waiting lists for nursing school, and we have a severe shortage of nurses. Lets sum that up. Severe shortage of nurses, tons of people wanting to enter programs that can't accept them cause they don't have the money to hire additional instructors, a large group of potential instructors who see no teaching positions available. Hmmm, where might a solution lie? The public good, I believe, would be well served with grant money to hire instructors to train nurses (oh, the socialiam of it all ). I realize money is tight, what with making America safe by continuing the quagmire in Iraq and all (a war, I might add, our fervent anti-socialism, free market economy, local solution expert, has consistently supported) .. but it seems like money well spent to me. But hey, WTFDIK? I actually expect govt dollars to be spent recruiting and training an adequate number of fire fighters to keep the town from burning down.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #34 July 18, 2007 Quote Hmmm, where might a solution lie? The public good, I believe, would be well served with grant money to hire instructors to train nurses (oh, the socialiam of it all ). I realize money is tight, what with making America safe by continuing the quagmire in Iraq and all (a war, I might add, our fervent anti-socialism, free market economy, local solution expert, has consistently supported) .. but it seems like money well spent to me. But hey, WTFDIK? I actually expect govt dollars to be spent recruiting and training an adequate number of fire fighters to keep the town from burning down. You know, jenfly, you make a good solid argument and then you piss away the high ground with a bunch of emotional, ideological blather. Bummer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #35 July 18, 2007 Quote Quote Hmmm, where might a solution lie? The public good, I believe, would be well served with grant money to hire instructors to train nurses (oh, the socialiam of it all ). I realize money is tight, what with making America safe by continuing the quagmire in Iraq and all (a war, I might add, our fervent anti-socialism, free market economy, local solution expert, has consistently supported) .. but it seems like money well spent to me. But hey, WTFDIK? I actually expect govt dollars to be spent recruiting and training an adequate number of fire fighters to keep the town from burning down. You know, jenfly, you make a good solid argument and then you piss away the high ground with a bunch of emotional, ideological blather. Bummer. I don't post here to try and convince anyone of anything. I say what I have to say. If acceptance or rejection of an argument is decided on the basis of someone not liking the emotions, the problem lies with them. A solid argument is a solid argument. What kind of person ignores facts because they don't like the emotional tone?----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #36 July 18, 2007 QuoteI say what I have to say. If acceptance or rejection of an argument is decided on the basis of someone not liking the emotions, the problem lies with them. A solid argument is a solid argument. What kind of person ignores facts because they don't like the emotional tone? Oh. The "I can't help it if you're too stupid to see the obvious" school of persuasion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #37 July 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteI say what I have to say. If acceptance or rejection of an argument is decided on the basis of someone not liking the emotions, the problem lies with them. A solid argument is a solid argument. What kind of person ignores facts because they don't like the emotional tone? Oh. The "I can't help it if you're too stupid to see the obvious" school of persuasion. Worse! You said you could see the points but reject them cause you didn't care for my tone. Like some silly school girl stamping her foot, pouting and saying "Well! I didn't like her tone. She's wrong. The sun does not rise in the East." I'm not here to take you by the hand and lead you to the water. Drink. Don't drink, wander off in the distance. It's all up to you.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #38 July 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI say what I have to say. If acceptance or rejection of an argument is decided on the basis of someone not liking the emotions, the problem lies with them. A solid argument is a solid argument. What kind of person ignores facts because they don't like the emotional tone? Oh. The "I can't help it if you're too stupid to see the obvious" school of persuasion. Worse! You said you could see the points but reject them cause you didn't care for my tone. Like some silly school girl stamping her foot, pouting and saying "Well! I didn't like her tone. She's wrong. The sun does not rise in the East." I'm not here to take you by the hand and lead you to the water. Drink. Don't drink, wander off in the distance. It's all up to you. I guess my point about the speaker giving up the high ground with a bunch of emotional, ideological blather applies to responses, as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #39 July 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI say what I have to say. If acceptance or rejection of an argument is decided on the basis of someone not liking the emotions, the problem lies with them. A solid argument is a solid argument. What kind of person ignores facts because they don't like the emotional tone? Oh. The "I can't help it if you're too stupid to see the obvious" school of persuasion. Worse! You said you could see the points but reject them cause you didn't care for my tone. Like some silly school girl stamping her foot, pouting and saying "Well! I didn't like her tone. She's wrong. The sun does not rise in the East." I'm not here to take you by the hand and lead you to the water. Drink. Don't drink, wander off in the distance. It's all up to you. I guess my point about the speaker giving up the high ground with a bunch of emotional, ideological blather applies to responses, as well. Snce you bring up emotion, and trying to get back to the topic at hand from your diversionary tactics: There's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) than an emotional or altruistic response. Since choice of a career involves a significant emotional component (and altruistic in the case of nursing), maybe this IS an area in which the free market simply doesn't work optimally.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #40 July 18, 2007 >There's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that > illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a >challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) . . . Well, I'd also suggest that optimizing profit (which is what the free market does) may be a poor goal anyway. Profit may be optimized by forcing a nursing shortage such that patient mortality goes way up; that drives demand until patients begin to survive. It would not be the first time that profit was enhanced by scarcity. Does government have a role in counteracting such a force? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #41 July 18, 2007 QuoteThere's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) than an emotional or altruistic response. Since choice of a career involves a significant emotional component (and altruistic in the case of nursing), maybe this IS an area in which the free market simply doesn't work optimally. Do you really think which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #42 July 18, 2007 QuoteAre there thousands of would be nurses unable to find a school? Yes. The nursing shortage has nothing to do with a lack of would-be nurses; every nursing school either has a long waiting list or only accepts people with very high GPA's. But I don't think it's necessarily a lack of nursing schools either. It mostly has to do with a lack of people to teach nursing, which has to do with a lack of funding to pay qualified people enough to become nursing educators. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #43 July 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI say what I have to say. If acceptance or rejection of an argument is decided on the basis of someone not liking the emotions, the problem lies with them. A solid argument is a solid argument. What kind of person ignores facts because they don't like the emotional tone? Oh. The "I can't help it if you're too stupid to see the obvious" school of persuasion. Worse! You said you could see the points but reject them cause you didn't care for my tone. Like some silly school girl stamping her foot, pouting and saying "Well! I didn't like her tone. She's wrong. The sun does not rise in the East." I'm not here to take you by the hand and lead you to the water. Drink. Don't drink, wander off in the distance. It's all up to you. I guess my point about the speaker giving up the high ground with a bunch of emotional, ideological blather applies to responses, as well. Is that why you post here?!?! To earnpoints? ...to impress? ...to gain the high ground?. How ...juvenile.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #44 July 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteAre there thousands of would be nurses unable to find a school? Yes. The nursing shortage has nothing to do with a lack of would-be nurses; every nursing school either has a long waiting list or only accepts people with very high GPA's. But I don't think it's necessarily a lack of nursing schools either. It mostly has to do with a lack of people to teach nursing, which has to do with a lack of funding to pay qualified people enough to become nursing educators. I'm not saying that is not a factor, but how many unfilled, open positions exist in the nursing schools in your area?----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 906 #45 July 18, 2007 can I just get one tha hablamos Englais por favor??? sweet jebus that drives me nuts! they ask things of us that you simply cannot understand! asking for an aspirin turned in an hour long debate because the request became "she wants to take her medicine...what medicine? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #46 July 18, 2007 QuoteI'm not saying that is not a factor, but how many unfilled, open positions exist in the nursing schools in your area? I don't know. At the school that I am going to, about 200-300 people apply to the the R.N. program every semester, and about 12-36 are accepted, depending on how many people they can accommodate at that time. I have talked to people in the nursing department about this, and they say it is because they cannot hire enough instructors to accept more students - mostly due to the fact that they can't pay nursing instructors more than they pay other faculty. So many qualified nurses choose to remain in the field where they can make a lot more $$ rather than taking a pay cut to teach. From what I understand, this is the case with most schools in California; I suppose it might be a different situation in other states, but I don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,182 #47 July 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteThere's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) than an emotional or altruistic response. Since choice of a career involves a significant emotional component (and altruistic in the case of nursing), maybe this IS an area in which the free market simply doesn't work optimally. Do you really think which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? See posts 5, 6,11, 32 of this thread (among others).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #48 July 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteThere's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) than an emotional or altruistic response. Since choice of a career involves a significant emotional component (and altruistic in the case of nursing), maybe this IS an area in which the free market simply doesn't work optimally. Do you really think which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? See posts 5, 6,11, 32 of this thread (among others). I'll take that as a yes. How about you explain how which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #49 July 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteIs that why you post here?!?! To earnpoints? ...to impress? ...to gain the high ground?. How ...juvenile. It's abundantly clear that you missed my point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,182 #50 July 19, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote There's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) than an emotional or altruistic response. Since choice of a career involves a significant emotional component (and altruistic in the case of nursing), maybe this IS an area in which the free market simply doesn't work optimally. Do you really think which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? See posts 5, 6,11, 32 of this thread (among others). I'll take that as a yes. How about you explain how which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? You take it incorrectly . Others have suggested it in the posts I referenced (among others). I'm suggesting quite clearly (to anyone not simply interested in scoring debating points) that the free market is unlikely to work in situations like this. The Scientific American article gives a mathematical analysis of a situation where rational decision making actually leads to the worst possible outcome.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 2,182 #50 July 19, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote There's a very interesting article in this month's Scientific American that illustrates very nicely how the rational ("free market") response to a challenge can lead to a less optimal outcome (lower rewards for everyone) than an emotional or altruistic response. Since choice of a career involves a significant emotional component (and altruistic in the case of nursing), maybe this IS an area in which the free market simply doesn't work optimally. Do you really think which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? See posts 5, 6,11, 32 of this thread (among others). I'll take that as a yes. How about you explain how which programs are chosen for state funded, higher education can be boiled down to a "free market" issue? You take it incorrectly . Others have suggested it in the posts I referenced (among others). I'm suggesting quite clearly (to anyone not simply interested in scoring debating points) that the free market is unlikely to work in situations like this. The Scientific American article gives a mathematical analysis of a situation where rational decision making actually leads to the worst possible outcome.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
