UC Irvine Law School - Yet Another Example of Govt. Priorities

[lawrocket 3]

Back in November, the Regents of the University of California approved a plan to launch a new Law School at University of California, Irvine. Studies conducted by the RAND corporation and the California Postsecondary Education Commission have found that there is expected to be plenty of lawyers in California for the next ten years.

We've got a little over 200,000 attorneys in California. We've got 18 law schools in Cali that are ABA approved - and another two that are provisionally approved. We have 18 more law schools approved by the California Committe of Bar Examiners. There are another 21 unaccredited law schools here in California alone.

In July, 2006, 4,616 people passed the CA Bar Exam. Of those, 1059 were from out-of-state schools, 222 were US Attorneys who passed the exam, and another 42 were from foreign countries.

The point? California seems to be doing just fine in terms of meeting its attorney supply. Now, I actually think that UCI would have been a fine location for a new law school - 15 years ago. Back in 1996, there were zero ABA accredited law schools in Orange County. By 2001, there were three: Chapman, Western and Whittier. The niche that UCI would have occupied is filled.

UCI would be the fifth public law school in Cali (UCLA, Hastings, Berkeley and Davis are the others). The problem? While there are actually more registered nurses in California than there are attorneys, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that we are facing a nursing shortage.

The University of California has five medical schools. But on two - yes, TWO nursing schools - at UCLA and UC San Francisco.

Why is the government not meeting the glowing need for more nursing? It seems that instead of devoting millions to a new law school at UCI, devoting millions to a new nursing school at UCI would be a good thing. Hell, add another nursing school at UC San Diego.

Why on earth are they trying to put in another law school? Its a sad thing to say that having a law school carries more prestige than a nursing school. Tens of millions will go to a new law school while nursing continues its slide.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PLFXpert 0]

"All my life I've searched for my true calling. And this is it. Nursing! And if you can't support me, you are dead to me!...No, not dead, because a nurse takes an oath to prevent death...YOU have cramps that won't go away. And YOU have a smattering of adult acne. Good-bye!"





I can't help it. I thought of "not supporting nursing" and it's the first thought that came to mind. Sadly, my brain often organizes this way.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

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By 2001, there were three: Chapman, Western and Whittier. The niche that UCI would have occupied is filled.

UCI would be the fifth public law school in Cali (UCLA, Hastings, Berkeley and Davis are the others). The problem? While there are actually more registered nurses in California than there are attorneys, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that we are facing a nursing shortage.

Colleges meet demand. Are there thousands of would be nurses unable to find a school? And what is the prestige level of the 3 schools you listed. Does it come close to the UC ones you list - at least the 2 Cal and one UCLA one? If UCLA is the only UC law school in the region that has over 20M people, it seems like we could stand for another.

Are there too many law schools and lawyers. Sure. Right now it is booming. But when they can't get work, they're go elsewhere.

I got the sense that the professional schools in the UC system don't subsidize their tuition. They're as expensive as the rest.

[jenfly00 0]

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By 2001, there were three: Chapman, Western and Whittier. The niche that UCI would have occupied is filled.

UCI would be the fifth public law school in Cali (UCLA, Hastings, Berkeley and Davis are the others). The problem? While there are actually more registered nurses in California than there are attorneys, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that we are facing a nursing shortage.

Colleges meet demand. Are there thousands of would be nurses unable to find a school? And what is the prestige level of the 3 schools you listed. Does it come close to the UC ones you list - at least the 2 Cal and one UCLA one? If UCLA is the only UC law school in the region that has over 20M people, it seems like we could stand for another.

Are there too many law schools and lawyers. Sure. Right now it is booming. But when they can't get work, they're go elsewhere.

I got the sense that the professional schools in the UC system don't subsidize their tuition. They're as expensive as the rest.

I don't know about calif specifically, but nationwide there are typically long waiting lists for people wanting to enter Nursing School.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rehmwa 2]

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Why is the government not meeting the glowing need for more nursing?

Why is this a government role? Why can't private colleges meet the perceived demand?

We should ask the government to answer this question. They should fix everything.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jenfly00 0]

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Why is the government not meeting the glowing need for more nursing?

Why is this a government role? Why can't private colleges meet the perceived demand?

We should ask the government to answer this question. They should fix everything.

If you were seriously sick/injured, would you be at all concerned that there were sufficient numbers of experienced nurses taking care of you?

There is a SEVERE nursing shortage nationwide. Health care corp. have raided every third and forth world country and brought "nurses" over hear by the super tanker load. Marginal in English and even more marginal in technical skills (a nurse in those countries, makes bandages and fetches things for the doctor), they provide a huge part of the nursing care here in South Florida.

You think the govt should not promote more nursing programs?

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rehmwa 2]

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here is a SEVERE nursing shortage nationwide.

then that would drive up the salaries, which would increase the demand for nursing schools, which would open up a ready market for opening new schools. strangely enough, higher salaries would also encourage the immigration of qualified nurses as well wouldn't it?

Or, we could "raid every 3rd and 4th world" country and import a ton of "nurses" and artificially keep the salaries down as a result.

your choice

The government can "promote" all they want. I just don't see them funding the effort in order to stifle nursing becoming a profession of choice for those that want to be able to make a living at it.

I wonder if excessive litigation has any impact on the unwillingness of people to enter the medical professions? Nah. It couldn't be. But if it did, maybe the 'government' could 'promote' medical professionals by giving them some protection in that area.

If it was really needed. Hypothetically speaking.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,132]

>then that would drive up the salaries . . .

. . . and increase demand for nurses. That in turn would increase demand for schools. So then they build the schools, and eventually no more shortage. The key word there is "eventually." If it's a matter of public health, the government may have a role in helping that process take 2 years instead of 12.

[jenfly00 0]

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here is a SEVERE nursing shortage nationwide.

then that would drive up the salaries, which would increase the demand for nursing schools, which would open up a ready market for opening new schools. strangely enough, higher salaries would also encourage the immigration of qualified nurses as well wouldn't it?

Or, we could "raid every 3rd and 4th world" country and import a ton of "nurses" and artificially keep the salaries down as a result.

your choice

The government can "promote" all they want. I just don't see them funding the effort in order to stifle nursing becoming a profession of choice for those that want to be able to make a living at it.

I wonder if excessive litigation has any impact on the unwillingness of people to enter the medical professions? Nah. It couldn't be. But if it did, maybe the 'government' could 'promote' medical professionals by giving them some protection in that area.

If it was really needed. Hypothetically speaking.

Nurses very seldom get sued, BTW. I just got off the phone with my mom. Thirty years as a nurse ...never sued. I asked her if she knew of a nurse who had been sued. Her reply, "I guess I must of heard of a few over the years, but don't know of any".

As usual, your ideology leads you to believe you actually know something about the situation.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rehmwa 2]

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>then that would drive up the salaries . . .

. . . and increase demand for nurses. That in turn would increase demand for schools. So then they build the schools, and eventually no more shortage. The key word there is "eventually." If it's a matter of public health, the government may have a role in helping that process take 2 years instead of 12.

Ahh someone does understand

12 years to set up a school? Nonsense
The lag is the time to train and certify nurses, that take so much time unless one reduces the qualification requirements so they can graduate in less time......

So what was tying up the natural economic market up to get us to this point? That's the real lesson to learn here. And the lesson learned needs to be applied in other areas so the gov doesn't HAVE to step in later - no matter how much some people love that.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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As usual, your ideology leads you to believe you actually know something about the situation.

nonsense, if you can't make more than a 1st level link, then you should take up basket weaving.

You don't believe that higher salaries would encourage more people to take up nursing?

as usual, your desire to live in a socialist society leads to believe whatever supports that position

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,132]

>12 years to set up a school? Nonsense. The lag is the time to train and certify nurses. . .

Well, the lag time is to set up the school, build/buy whatever is needed for facilities, then accept, train and certify nurses. If that's long, the government may have a role in shortening it.

> And the lesson learned needs to be applied in other areas so the gov doesn't HAVE to step in later . . .

As far as I can tell, one of the primary reasons is that there was a "nursing boom" from 1940-1955 and they are now retiring. That doesn't seem like a problem that's amenable to fixing. (Unless you had a government organization that said "you can't be a nurse" in 1950; I suppose the same one now would be prohibiting people from going to law school.)

[PLFXpert 0]

Would such a society have ample cocktail umbrellas?

I've noticed a severe shortage in my local bar's supply. If the government could step in and encourage cute-paper-umbrella production, I'd support that.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[NCclimber 0]

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Why is the government not meeting the glowing need for more nursing?

Why is this a government role? Why can't private colleges meet the perceived demand?

We should ask the government to answer this question. They should fix everything.

"Why is this a government role?"

I think it's the general mission of public higher eduction to meet the demand of the public it serves. This situation isn't one about creating a new program that would require new funding, it's about choosing where to spend funds that are already allocated for education. This may be oversimplified, but I think you get my point.

Why build another law school (when there's already a glut of attorneys) when new nursing schools are sorely needed?

[NCclimber 0]

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As far as I can tell, one of the primary reasons is that there was a "nursing boom" from 1940-1955 and they are now retiring. That doesn't seem like a problem that's amenable to fixing. (Unless you had a government organization that said "you can't be a nurse" in 1950; I suppose the same one now would be prohibiting people from going to law school.)

I'm pretty sure there's been a nationwide shortage for at least 20 years.

[billvon 3,132]

>I'm pretty sure there's been a nationwide shortage for at least 20 years.

If that's the case, then rehmwa's hope that the free market will take care of the problem may not come to pass. The question then becomes - is it OK to have an ongoing shortage of nurses, and does the government have a role in helping fix that?

It would seem that opening schools in a public university system would be a fairly simple way to help address that problem. On the one extreme, ignoring it completely is probably a mistake. On the other extreme, putting a lot of money into it will probably not work if there's little demand to begin with. Ensuring that the option is available for people who want to become nurses seems like a good way to go.

[jenfly00 0]

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>then that would drive up the salaries . . .

. . . and increase demand for nurses. That in turn would increase demand for schools. So then they build the schools, and eventually no more shortage. The key word there is "eventually." If it's a matter of public health, the government may have a role in helping that process take 2 years instead of 12.

Ahh someone does understand

12 years to set up a school? Nonsense
The lag is the time to train and certify nurses, that take so much time unless one reduces the qualification requirements so they can graduate in less time......

So what was tying up the natural economic market up to get us to this point? That's the real lesson to learn here. And the lesson learned needs to be applied in other areas so the gov doesn't HAVE to step in later - no matter how much some people love that.

Stuff your ideology of what was, what should of, what lessoned learned ...the nation needs nurses!

You both are off the mark. The existing schools have long waiting lists for lack of funding for more facutly primarily. Relatively cheap grants would allow these schools to greatly increase their enrollments and graduates.

Personally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[jenfly00 0]

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As far as I can tell, one of the primary reasons is that there was a "nursing boom" from 1940-1955 and they are now retiring. That doesn't seem like a problem that's amenable to fixing. (Unless you had a government organization that said "you can't be a nurse" in 1950; I suppose the same one now would be prohibiting people from going to law school.)

I'm pretty sure there's been a nationwide shortage for at least 20 years.

Absolutely!

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[penniless 0]

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Would such a society have ample cocktail umbrellas?

I've noticed a severe shortage in my local bar's supply. If the government could step in and encourage cute-paper-umbrella production, I'd support that.

I don't think cocktail umbrellas would qualify under the "general welfare" part of the Constitution. A reasonable case can be made for an adequate supply of nurses.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't think cocktail umbrellas would qualify under the "general welfare" part of the Constitution. A reasonable case can be made for an adequate supply of nurses.

but, what would the [albeit, 'remaining'] nurses use to decorate their fancy caribbean drinks

would someone please think of the children

why don't more nurses want to move on to teaching? the pay must be huge if the demand is so high. Maybe it's the general smell of second hand smoke pervading the clothing of most medical support candidates.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Personally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's.

Yes, if the waiting list is so long, then candidates will also pay higher tuition too in order to get into the field - this is immediate and local.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jenfly00 0]

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Personally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's.

Yes, if the waiting list is so long, then candidates will also pay higher tuition too in order to get into the field - this is immediate and local.

Of course! Fuckin brilliant! People must be lined up outside your door seeking solutions to major problems.

Oh, and yes, I would like fries with that and Biggie size it while your at it.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rehmwa 2]

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Personally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's.

Yes, if the waiting list is so long, then candidates will also pay higher tuition too in order to get into the field - this is immediate and local.

Of course! Fuckin brilliant! People must be lined up outside your door seeking solutions to major problems.

Classy -
It WAS your idea

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

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Why is this a government role? Why can't private colleges meet the perceived demand?

It's not entirely a government role. There are private colleges and universities.

There are 83 accredited nursing programs that provide assiciates degrees. There are 34 Accredited Bachelor's in Nursing Programs. And 16 Entry Level Master's schools.

California has over 275,000 RNs with active licenses. While it seems like a lot, it amounts to less than 600 per 100,000 population. (Here in the Central Valley it's only about 450 per 100,000).

There are a couple of issues, starting with the growing need. Face it - baby boomers are getting older. The US population continues to explode, as well. Many of those RN's are baby boomers. The ranks are thinning as demand increases. The average age of a California RN is about 50.

The second factor is legislation that affects nurse/patient ratios.

A third is that while there are a lot of schools, there aren't a lot of instructors because of the pay. Why take a pay cut to be an instructor? While schools can try to pay more, this increases the tuition, which lowers the appeal of nursing school and drives away the profession. As nurses become less frequent, they get paid more, leading to less of a chance of there being instructors. (Of course, the free market effect will then make people willign to pay more to become nurses, thus making paid professorships more viable).

Another factor that I would personally attribute is kind of a revese Title IX. Title IX required equality of the sexes in school athletics. But nursing is still a female dominated profession. (Dudes - the breast:teste ratio in nursing is freaking amazing! Had I known that I woulda gone to nursing school). Add that females have far more options now, too. So the would-be nurses of yesterday are many of the lawyers, engineers, doctors, etc. of today. But men aren't clamoring for it.

Add to that a sidenote to my Reverse Title IX effect - lots of women of today don't want to have to work nights. Nursing is a 24 hour per day job, and they start off working the graveyards, etc. A reality is that a large number of women don't dig that, and they opt for careers with more traditional hours.

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We shouldn't ask the government to be fixing this problem. However, when I see that the government is adding another fucking law school when we seem to be doing just fine, I need to scratch my head. If the government is gonna be doing something, I would think that it should be doing something that is more of a need for its population.

Oh, and you'll like this. UC Irvine's Law School is going to try to focus on producing public interest lawyers. "it will be instrumental in increasing accessibility for underrepresented groups in a region with one of the fastest growing and most diverse populations in the country. The law school will provide legal advice to those unable to afford counsel and encourage graduates to pursue careers in public service."

Again, putting out attorneys for whom there won't be jobs. First, few graduates can even afford to work in public interest because the jobs don't pay enough to pay back loans and still have a place to live. And last year, the Center for Law in the Public Interest in Los Angeles filed Chapter 7 (liquidation). Because they can't afford even meager salaries. Most of these places get most of their work from alliances with big firms doing pro bono work, anyway.

If California is gonna open a new school, open a new nursing school. Plenty of them have opened lately, of course. But - quit directing money to more freaking law schools.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jenfly00 0]

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Personally, I would spend the money at the community college level. Forget BSN's. Turn out nurses now in two year (18 months, if you push) ADN's.

Yes, if the waiting list is so long, then candidates will also pay higher tuition too in order to get into the field - this is immediate and local.

Of course! Fuckin brilliant! People must be lined up outside your door seeking solutions to major problems.

Classy -
It WAS your idea

I can see you standing outside a burning apartment building, muttering as people scream for help ...

'So what was tying up the natural economic market up to get us to this point? That's the real lesson to learn here. And the lesson learned needs to be applied in other areas so the gov doesn't HAVE to step in later - no matter how much some people love that.'

' I don't understand why we don't have trained firefighters to put out this blaze, afterall, I haven't seen the govt funding the effort in order to stifle firefighters becoming a profession of choice for those that want to be able to make a living at it.'

' ... and all these burned up bodies (bloody nuisance, really), I hope no one expects the government to assume the responsibility to dispose of them. A thriving free market economy should address this need. You socialists need to learn a lesson in reality!'


Fries! I said fries, dude!

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".