Live Earth Concert

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

What I find funny about these big hot air events is how the billionaire tells you to reduce your shower time and turn off more lights but when you ask about the relationship between capital and 95% of the global population you are told to sit down and shut up.

[billvon 3,120]

Based on your replies, you're not. Deniers are political animals that are characterized by their denial of anything that threatens their political position. In this case, it's denial of something they see as a left wing attempt to take over the government/the US/the world.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Based on your replies, you're not. Deniers are political animals that are characterized by their denial of anything that threatens their political position. In this case, it's denial of something they see as a left wing attempt to take over the government/the US/the world.

I know, my ideals of real democracy, equality and freedom are a thorn in the side to Gore and Geldof's hot tub party

[billvon 3,120]

>my ideals of real democracy, equality and freedom are a thorn in the
>side to Gore and Geldof's hot tub party.

Like I said . . .

[azdiver 0]

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>see chart below and then explain the stays the same theory again?

Can't open it; what is it?> al gores co2 graph

>if co2 makes so much of a difference then why is it cooler today then it
>was 2k years ago and 500 years ago?

Because things other than CO2 can influence climate. >yes and CO2 has very little effect overall

>see graph previously attached co2 makes up 3 % of the green house
>gases in the atmosphere

Nope, sorry. That's untrue, and repeating it won't make it any more true.> only untrue to your argument because it disproves your point.

>that is a different subject as asphalt and crops are not greenhouse gases.

True. And greenhouse gases are not clouds. And clouds are not SUV's. > clouds are ice crystals not water vapor and water vapor is a greenhouse gas, the most abundant making up 95% of all,and the one responsible for most of the temp changes

>well planes were flying yesterday and flying today but the temp changed
>by 6 degrees F. so what happened between then and now to cause that.

The sun went down.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[azdiver 0]

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>How about clarifying what you mean.

Allow me.

Do you think the earth's average surface temperature is getting warmer?> yes

If so, do you think that man's emissions of CO2, and subsequent increase in greenhouse gas levels in our atmosphere, are the primary reason?>no

If so, do you think this might be a good thing overall?
> its natural and will happen anyway good or bad
(I have no illusions that you will actually answer these questions, but at least they're out there.)> so in your opinion i would be what?

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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[Rookie120 0]

All these numbers, stats and scientists give me a headache. Heres what I want to know.

WHAT DO YOU THINK I CAN DO TO CHANGE IT????? Besides what I have already done by trying to cut down on my consumption of energy. I would love to but a car that get 100mpg but I cannot but something that doesnt exist. I hear all these people yelling about global warming, then you no answer on how to change it beside "Cut down on your use of fossil fuel".

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,120]

>yes and CO2 has very little effect overall

CO2 blocks the re-radiation of longwave IR, and is one of the reasons the temperature on this planet is like it is. It supplies over 10% of the total warming seen via the greenhouse effect. Here's a link to a good description of the phenomenon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect

All scientists accept this as fact. There's really no controversy at all (other than controversy manufactured for other purposes.) Nor is there much controversy over whether more CO2 means more greenhouse effect. There is a small but vocal minority who believe that increasing CO2 won't do very much in terms of the warming we've seen, and that something else must be causing the warming.

Perhaps you might switch your objection to that? It's a much more popular position.

>clouds are ice crystals not water vapor . . .

Clouds are water vapor that has condensed around nuclei (like dust.) They can be water or ice, and play a very large role in temperature regulation of the planet.

>and water vapor is a greenhouse gas, the most abundant making up 95%
>of all,and the one responsible for most of the temp changes.

Water is indeed the most significant greenhouse gas, but is largely absent in the upper atmosphere, which is very, very dry. The upper atmosphere is where much of the blocking of longwave IR radiation happens, since that's the "last chance" if you will for our atmosphere to block IR. That's why CO2 has such an effect even though its total concentration is low - because it is present in the most critical part of our atmosphere where water vapor does not naturally occur in significant quantities.

[billvon 3,120]

>WHAT DO YOU THINK I CAN DO TO CHANGE IT?

Individually we can:

Buy more efficient cars. You can't get a 100mpg car yet but you can get a 45mpg one.

Use things other than cars more often. Bikes, trains, buses etc generally use a lot less oil than your typical car.

Buy food locally. Supports local farmers and saves on all the fuel used to ship the food to you. Better yet, find an organic farm that does not use natural gas based fertilizers.

Make your house more efficient. Modern refrigerators, A/C units, washing machines, dishwashers etc are way more efficient than those of even 10 years ago, and you can specifically choose ones that are more efficient. Most of them have EER (energy efficiency ratings.)

Get rid of phantom loads, like those cube power supplies for computer periperals. Put them on an extra powerstrip and turn them all off when not in use.

Switch from incandescent to CF lightbulbs. Put in some of those small skylights so you don't need to run lights during the day.

Insulate the hell out of your walls and attic, and insulate all your pipes.

Switch to natural gas or propane for heating if possible; avoid electric or oil heat. Natural gas releases much less CO2 when burned.

Recycle plastics, glass cardboard and aluminum. It takes between 20% and 95% less energy to recycle those things than to make them new.

If you have the money, invest in solar hot water/solar electric. You can easily reduce your house's power draw to zero (average.) If everyone did this we could shut down every single coal fired power plant in the US.

As a nation we can:

Aggressively pursue more efficient vehicles, and alternate fuels for those vehicles (including electric.)

Push nuclear energy over coal, and provide incentives for nuclear power plant construction.

Switch our military from oil based to another fuel. This is actually a national security issue, not just an environmental one. Our military should not rely on our potential enemies for fuel.

Continue to fund research into solar generation technology.

Pursue carbon sequestration technologies (a stopgap solution, but one that might work well for the short term.)

Pursue land use strategies that retain forests/vegetated areas, like greenbelt zoning in suburbs.

Provide incentives for airlines, rail lines, truck companies, rental car companies etc to switch to the best available energy-reduction technologies. The 787 is a good example of what can be done in that area - and that's without much in the way of incentives.

Improve our power grid so that wind power from Maine and solar power from Arizona can be used to support loads in places like Dallas and NYC.

[Rookie120 0]

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Use things other than cars more often. Bikes, trains, buses etc generally use a lot less oil than your typical car.

Would love to bike to work. Just to far away. Same goes for a lot of people. You cannot bike 50 miles a day up the Jersey turnpike.

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Buy food locally. Supports local farmers and saves on all the fuel used to ship the food to you. Better yet, find an organic farm that does not use natural gas based fertilizers.

Sounds great. What am I supposed to eat the other 9 months of the year when nothing is growing in snow. Florida has a growing season where very little is coming out also. In the middle of summer you will find very little produce coming out of Florida, California, Arizona.

Did you know when I used to drive truck I hauled oranges out of California to Florida, they unloaded it, resorted them, put a Fl stamp on them and sent them right back to CA. Just because it says something dont always believe it.

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Push nuclear energy over coal, and provide incentives for nuclear power plant construction.

The enviromentalist bitch about that to! No matter what you come up with they bitch. I remember reading about a wind farm that the Enviro's nitched about because they said birds were going to fly into the blades.

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Switch our military from oil based to another fuel. This is actually a national security issue, not just an environmental one. Our military should not rely on our potential enemies for fuel.

Sounds good. Once again how can you switch to something that isnt widely available or available at all?

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Provide incentives for airlines, rail lines, truck companies, rental car companies etc to switch to the best available energy-reduction technologies. The 787 is a good example of what can be done in that area - and that's without much in the way of incentives.

I think Boeing is providing the incentive with the fuel savings that they say we will be getting. Airlines have told Boeing what they wanted and they are delivering on that request. Word in the industry is they are in the early phase of design for a 737 replacement. We have to get more efficient or go out of business. Same with rail and trucks.

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Improve our power grid so that wind power from Maine and solar power from Arizona can be used to support loads in places like Dallas and NYC.

Once again they are trying to put a wind farm out over Long Island but some enviro's are bitching about it. There a lot of people who wont be happy until we all live in a damn cave. The problem is those are the one's who bring a lot of these projects to a screaching hault with a lawyer and a letter.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Muenkel 0]

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>WHAT DO YOU THINK I CAN DO TO CHANGE IT?

Individually we can:

Buy more efficient cars. You can't get a 100mpg car yet but you can get a 45mpg one.

Use things other than cars more often. Bikes, trains, buses etc generally use a lot less oil than your typical car.

Buy food locally. Supports local farmers and saves on all the fuel used to ship the food to you. Better yet, find an organic farm that does not use natural gas based fertilizers.

Make your house more efficient. Modern refrigerators, A/C units, washing machines, dishwashers etc are way more efficient than those of even 10 years ago, and you can specifically choose ones that are more efficient. Most of them have EER (energy efficiency ratings.)

Get rid of phantom loads, like those cube power supplies for computer periperals. Put them on an extra powerstrip and turn them all off when not in use.

Switch from incandescent to CF lightbulbs. Put in some of those small skylights so you don't need to run lights during the day.

Insulate the hell out of your walls and attic, and insulate all your pipes.

Switch to natural gas or propane for heating if possible; avoid electric or oil heat. Natural gas releases much less CO2 when burned.

Recycle plastics, glass cardboard and aluminum. It takes between 20% and 95% less energy to recycle those things than to make them new.

If you have the money, invest in solar hot water/solar electric. You can easily reduce your house's power draw to zero (average.) If everyone did this we could shut down every single coal fired power plant in the US.

As a nation we can:

Aggressively pursue more efficient vehicles, and alternate fuels for those vehicles (including electric.)

Push nuclear energy over coal, and provide incentives for nuclear power plant construction.

Switch our military from oil based to another fuel. This is actually a national security issue, not just an environmental one. Our military should not rely on our potential enemies for fuel.

Continue to fund research into solar generation technology.

Pursue carbon sequestration technologies (a stopgap solution, but one that might work well for the short term.)

Pursue land use strategies that retain forests/vegetated areas, like greenbelt zoning in suburbs.

Provide incentives for airlines, rail lines, truck companies, rental car companies etc to switch to the best available energy-reduction technologies. The 787 is a good example of what can be done in that area - and that's without much in the way of incentives.

Improve our power grid so that wind power from Maine and solar power from Arizona can be used to support loads in places like Dallas and NYC.

Rookie already did a nice job addressing each of these suggestions so I am just going to add one more thing. The average middle class American cannot afford to make most of these changes that you suggest.

Nice ideas though. Just not as easy as posting them on dz.com.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[billvon 3,120]

>Would love to bike to work. Just to far away. Same goes for a lot of people.

Right; we're very car-centric, and buy houses in car commuting distance but not bike commuting distance (because they're bigger for the same price, or are on more land, or are prettier etc.) We can change that as well if we choose to. I chose my house partly because I could get to work by bike, because it was important to me to do so. If we as a society make the same sorts of decisions gasoline usage will go way down.

>Sounds great. What am I supposed to eat the other 9 months of the
>year when nothing is growing in snow.

Squash, carrots, potatoes, and the many other vegetables that store well. For the ones that don't, get them from a greenhouse based CSA.

>Once again how can you switch to something that isnt widely available or available at all?

Make it widely available. If you create a demand within the military for (say) E85, and say "we'll pay $3.00 a gallon, and we'll take 2 million gallons please" companies will fall all over themselves to produce it; there's nothing better than a military contract to many companies. That requires setting up the infrastructure in the military to handle it, converting vehicles to operate on it etc so it will take a lot of work.

>The enviromentalist bitch about that to!

Everyone bitches about everything. Environmentalists complain about oil dependency and then they complain about the price of gas. Conservatives bitch about needless EPA regulations then complain about the smog. The trick is to ignore the dumber complaints.

[billvon 3,120]

>American cannot afford to make most of these changes that you suggest.

We are the richest nation on the planet. We can afford moon missions, Manhattan projects, and half trillion dollar optional wars. We can afford it if we choose to. We simply do not choose to.

A solar power system costs about what a luxury SUV does. Now take a look at the freeway the next time you are driving somewhere and count them. If every one of them bought a Yaris (or equivalent) you'd be able to install those solar power systems AND save the fuel.

Of course, that won't happen. Not because it's "impossible" or "too expensive" but because people want luxury SUV's more than they want solar power systems. It's choice, not affordability.

[Muenkel 0]

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>American cannot afford to make most of these changes that you suggest.

We are the richest nation on the planet. We can afford moon missions, Manhattan projects, and half trillion dollar optional wars. We can afford it if we choose to. We simply do not choose to.

A solar power system costs about what a luxury SUV does. Now take a look at the freeway the next time you are driving somewhere and count them. If every one of them bought a Yaris (or equivalent) you'd be able to install those solar power systems AND save the fuel.

Of course, that won't happen. Not because it's "impossible" or "too expensive" but because people want luxury SUV's more than they want solar power systems. It's choice, not affordability.

Bill, you surprise me. That was a really bad response. If you used the correct quote; "the average middle-class American...." you would perhaps understand what I am saying. The average American is more likely to purchase their food on sale. Buying from local farmers only is generally much more expensive. I assume you're referring to a hybrid car when you suggest 45mpg's. These cars are more expensive than their counterparts even when you figure in the difference in the cost of gasoline. Besides, the average middle-class American most likely cannot afford a new car. They are probably busy laying out money to repair their older models. Etc on the rest of the issues.

I am not an average middle-class American and I assume you are not either. Why is it I notice these things and you don't?

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[azdiver 0]

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>WHAT DO YOU THINK I CAN DO TO CHANGE IT?

Individually we can:

Buy more efficient cars. You can't get a 100mpg car yet but you can get a 45mpg one.
> some people cant have cars and they don't make hybrid work trucks
Use things other than cars more often. Bikes, trains, buses etc generally use a lot less oil than your typical car.
>big cities offer some of these but not all can use them, to save money i would gladly use the light rail out here but untill they extended it to every new house im building it wont be possible.
Buy food locally. Supports local farmers and saves on all the fuel used to ship the food to you. Better yet, find an organic farm that does not use natural gas based fertilizers.
> if they could produce enough food locally their would not be a need to transport food in on average a farm produces enough food for 187 people
Make your house more efficient. Modern refrigerators, A/C units, washing machines, dishwashers etc are way more efficient than those of even 10 years ago, and you can specifically choose ones that are more efficient. Most of them have EER (energy efficiency ratings.)
> talking a lot of money that most cant afford, i want a new ac but at 6k i cant afford it( mines 20yrs old)
Get rid of phantom loads, like those cube power supplies for computer periperals. Put them on an extra powerstrip and turn them all off when not in use.

Switch from incandescent to CF lightbulbs. Put in some of those small skylights so you don't need to run lights during the day.

Insulate the hell out of your walls and attic, and insulate all your pipes.
done to the extreme
Switch to natural gas or propane for heating if possible; avoid electric or oil heat. Natural gas releases much less CO2 when burned.
>gas isnt available everywhere
Recycle plastics, glass cardboard and aluminum. It takes between 20% and 95% less energy to recycle those things than to make them new.
city ordinance
If you have the money, invest in solar hot water/solar electric. You can easily reduce your house's power draw to zero (average.) If everyone did this we could shut down every single coal fired power plant in the US.
As a nation we can:
>again lots of money
Aggressively pursue more efficient vehicles, and alternate fuels for those vehicles (including electric.)

Push nuclear energy over coal, and provide incentives for nuclear power plant construction. > I would like to see fusion using helium3 more aggressively pursued

Switch our military from oil based to another fuel. This is actually a national security issue, not just an environmental one. Our military should not rely on our potential enemies for fuel.

Continue to fund research into solar generation technology. > lots of it going on

Pursue carbon sequestration technologies (a stopgap solution, but one that might work well for the short term.)

Pursue land use strategies that retain forests/vegetated areas, like greenbelt zoning in suburbs.
>get rid of the hoa's and this would be easier

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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[Rookie120 0]

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Right; we're very car-centric, and buy houses in car commuting distance but not bike commuting distance (because they're bigger for the same price, or are on more land, or are prettier etc.)

None of those apply here. If you have enough guts to live in Newark NJ go ahead. My wife works in Manhattan. Not to many people can afford to live there. She takes the train to the city everyday if that makes any difference.

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Squash, carrots, potatoes, and the many other vegetables that store well. For the ones that don't, get them from a greenhouse based CSA.

Sounds good. How many slaugherhouses do you have in the LA area? Would love to see the uproar if anyone tried to build one.

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Make it widely available. If you create a demand within the military for (say) E85, and say "we'll pay $3.00 a gallon, and we'll take 2 million gallons please" companies will fall all over themselves to produce it;

This can be for another thread but does the energy used to make the ethanol cancel out the outcome of using it? The fuel used to plant, harvest, dry, transport, then produce it?

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Everyone bitches about everything. Environmentalists complain about oil dependency and then they complain about the price of gas. Conservatives bitch about needless EPA regulations then complain about the smog. The trick is to ignore the dumber complaints.

It's a viscous cycle!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,120]

>If you used the correct quote; "the average middle-class American...."
>you would perhaps understand what I am saying. The average American is
>more likely to purchase their food on sale. Buying from local farmers only
>is generally much more expensive.

You'd be surprised. Food costs range from about the same to about 2x more to _cheaper_ than store bought food. We have farmstands out here where you can get strawberries and avocados considerably cheaper than they are in stores.

>I assume you're referring to a hybrid car when you suggest 45mpg's.

A Yaris works just as well. A used Honda CRX HF works even better! You don't need a hybrid to get good mileage. Best of all, get a used diesel Rabbit and run it on french fry oil - which is available free behind most fast-food places.

It's inconvenient, which is why 99.99% of people will never do it. But again, that's a convenience decision, not a financial one.

>These cars are more expensive than their counterparts . . .

>even when you figure in the difference in the cost of gasoline. Besides, the
>average middle-class American most likely cannot afford a new car.

So get a used one.

Anyone who doesn't want to do something can come up with a million reasons why they can't do it. People who want to do something often just do it. We have all the pieces we need to greatly reduce CO2 emissions - we just have to want to do them.

I bought my first solar power system (used, in bad shape) when I was living at home making peanuts as a summer intern. I gave up some beer money, but I wanted to get started. I didn't know what I was doing, and it took a few more years to get to the point where I was generating useful amounts of energy. I was making $3.35 an hour at the time, IIRC.

[azdiver 0]

ok and you can read this http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO2ScienceB2C/education/reports/hansen/HansenTestimonyCritique.pdf

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[billvon 3,120]

>they don't make hybrid work trucks

GM has two hybrid pickups out. They also can use the hybrid system to generate AC power, so you don't need a separate generator at the worksite.

>big cities offer some of these but not all can use them, to save money
> i would gladly use the light rail out here but untill they extended it to
>every new house im building it wont be possible.

Right, that's something we can do nationally - push for more light rail/bus lines.

>talking a lot of money that most cant afford, i want a new ac but at 6k i
>cant afford it( mines 20yrs old)

Right. And eventually it will break, and you'll have a choice of replacing it with a less efficient version or a more efficient version.

>gas isnt available everywhere

But propane is!

> I would like to see fusion using helium3 more aggressively pursued

That would be great, but that's pretty far out in the future as a power source.

[Muenkel 0]

Bill,

I truly believe you in regard to your passion of this subject and it does not surprise me that you did bust your ass to live a greener life. I admire you for that, because you are walking the walk. My dad had solar panels installed on our roof way back in the '70's. People used to drive by our house real slow to get a good peak.

Anyway, it's getting your suggestions mainstream that is the challenge. I think more and more people are slowly becoming aware of the contribution they can make.

There's 2 sides to this. First, the personal responsibility. This can only come about through education. Even with that though, there will be people who just don't give a shit. Today, I went with my mother to a doctor's appt. I waited outside the building during her appt. I noticed trash all over the place. Instead of just standing there like a slug, I began to pick up the trash and throw it in the receptacles. There were many people around who observed this. Do you think any of them would take a clue from me? Nope, not one. They just looked at me like I was from another planet.

Second is the government's role. This is even a tougher one as you know. Passing any law has its pro's and con's. If you clamp down on industry too hard, the economy suffers. If the gov't makes too many laws, you're now flirting with moving away from a capitalistic society which is what made us the richest nation. I could go on and on regarding this issue, but I know you get the idea.

In the meantime, my car gets 34mpgs, I do use some of the energy efficient light bulbs, I do recycle and I will continue to pick up trash in my little corner of the world.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[rushmc 23]

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> I would take the side that man is not causing the warming of the planet!!

Yes; you have explained your political position several hundred times by now.Why do you take this to a point of being an insult??? This fucking insulting comment implys that I can not think for myself. FUCK That! We do not agree. It is that simple. I post sources, resaons and research as well as researchers. But I guess the great billvon know more than anyone else. Nice, billvon, dam nice

>Some 16,000 scientists, two thirds of whom have advanced degrees,
>including over 6000 with Ph.D.s in science, have signed a petition that
>states . . .

Yep. If you're talking about the Oregon petition, several organizations tried to verify those signatures. 90% of the signatories did not have PhD's in any applicable field. Of the ones that do, well over half were fake. So you're talking about a petition where less than 5% were 'real' signatures per your definition.

And acording to the site response to this position you are lieing. But, can't aregue the point? Go after the source, Real crediible huh?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>How about clarifying what you mean.

Allow me.

Do you think the earth's average surface temperature is getting warmer?yes

If so, do you think that man's emissions of CO2, and subsequent increase in greenhouse gas levels in our atmosphere, are the primary reason?not likely, but what the fuck do I know, You have told me I have a political position cause I can't have an opinion that is contrary to the great one MR billvon

If so, do you think this might be a good thing overall?It is what it is. You make a weak corilation and expect all to bow to your suprior position of ecducation and caring

(I have no illusions that you will actually answer these questions, but at least they're out there.)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

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>How about clarifying what you mean.

Allow me.

Do you think the earth's average surface temperature is getting warmer?

Yes.

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If so, do you think that man's emissions of CO2, and subsequent increase in greenhouse gas levels in our atmosphere, are the primary reason?

I'm not sure. I think it's quite possible, but I'm not convinced.

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If so, do you think this might be a good thing overall?

If man-made pollution is the primary cause for rising global temps we should attempt to remedy the situation immediately.

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(I have no illusions that you will actually answer these questions, but at least they're out there.)

Sorry to burst your bubble, sport. Loved the PA, too.

So, based on my answers, which kind of "Denier" am I?

I, II or III?

PA's are legal coming from the greenies I should know

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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PA's are legal coming from the greenies I should know

Aww that is so cute when you play a poor little victim.....

[azdiver 0]

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>they don't make hybrid work trucks

GM has two hybrid pickups out. They also can use the hybrid system to generate AC power, so you don't need a separate generator at the worksite.
ok, last time i was truck shopping they didn't have any but they are 15 k more than a regular truck.

> I would like to see fusion using helium3 more aggressively pursued

That would be great, but that's pretty far out in the future as a power source.> if people would get off there asses and quit bickering about the ethics of certain things it would be possible alot sooner sense they already have a small working fusion generator.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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