billvon 3,110 #1 July 5, 2007 In light of our recent holiday I thought I'd post some excerpts: . . .When a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. . . . To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World. HE has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public Good. . . . HE has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers. HE has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the Tenure of their Offices, and the Amount and Payment of their Salaries. HE has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harrass our People, and eat out their Substance. . . . HE has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power. HE has combined with others to subject us to a Jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our Laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation: . . . FOR imposing Taxes on us without our Consent: FOR depriving us, in many Cases, of the Benefits of Trial by Jury: FOR transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended Offences: . . . FOR taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments: HE is, at this Time, transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to complete the Works of Death, Desolation, and Tyranny, already begun with Circumstances of Cruelty and Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous Ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized Nation. . . . IN every Stage of these Oppressions we have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble Terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated Injury. A Prince, whose Character is thus marked by every Act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the Ruler of a free People. . . . WE, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, solemnly Publish and Declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connexion between them and the State of Great-Britain, is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that as FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which INDEPENDENT STATES may of Right do. And for the Support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of DIVINE PROVIDENCE, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honour. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #2 July 5, 2007 Aw, just leave us along with our Big Macs and iPhones already! -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #3 July 5, 2007 History doesn't repeat itself but it sure does rhyme. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #4 July 5, 2007 Keith Olbermann has been REALLY impressing me lately, but he outdid himself in this ten minute speech from several days ago. I have seen several news websites carrying the entire transcript, but reading it just isn't as good as hearing his delivery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN-eGOtBGbg It just gets better, and better, as it goes along. Especially when he challenges Dubya to rise to the level of Richard Nixon."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #5 July 5, 2007 I missed that one.. but it certainly lays out how broken our country is.. how shamefull they have acted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #6 July 5, 2007 During the constitutional convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection." James Madison replied: "If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds tp believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty." Of course that was back in a different time, back when we wanted to get rid of a king, not defend "our king" against the other party. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #7 July 5, 2007 Quote During the constitutional convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection." James Madison replied: "If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds tp believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty." Of course that was back in a different time, back when we wanted to get rid of a king, not defend "our king" against the other party. Amazing how some people bitch about everything they don't agree with. Do you really have it so bad?? Do you actually think our lifestyle today has more than just a superficial similarity to that in the mid 18th century? Back then the colonies were ruled by a government not elected by it's citizens, the government was across a great ocean and was pretty much permanent. No matter how much you dispise your elected officials you can rest assured that they can be elected out of office. In other words, if you don't like this country the way it is, then change it or move. You're free to do either or both. I don't care which, but just quit bitchin'. It's giving me a flippin' headache. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #8 July 5, 2007 Bill is just pointing out the fact the in circumstances not unlike those of today, the people rose up together and overthrew the government. Today, such a thing would almost certainly never happen, without unbelievably harsh transgressions. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #9 July 5, 2007 Quote I missed that one.. but it certainly lays out how broken our country is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #10 July 5, 2007 It truely is sad that you think that is funny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #11 July 5, 2007 >Do you really have it so bad? Personally? Nope. But neither did most people in the colonies in 1775. Life was (relatively) good. It is a sign of an intelligent being that he can care about things beyond his own personal comfort. During the 60's my father campaigned for civil rights for blacks, even though he was not himself black. Nowadays I campaign for gay rights and I protest the war in Iraq, even though I'm not gay and I am at little risk for being killed by a US soldier or an Iraqi insurgent. >Do you actually think our lifestyle today has more than just a superficial >similarity to that in the mid 18th century? Our lifestyles have changed dramatically. So? >Back then the colonies were ruled by a government not elected by it's >citizens, the government was across a great ocean and was pretty much >permanent. No matter how much you dispise your elected officials you can >rest assured that they can be elected out of office. Or removed from office, as allowed by the constitution this country was founded on. >In other words, if you don't like this country the way it is, then change it or >move. You're free to do either or both. I don't care which, but just quit >bitchin'. It's giving me a flippin' headache. Perhaps it's all the bitching you are doing in return that's giving you that headache. If you are happy with the way things are, then by all means, stop complaining about stuff on the internet and go out and have some fun! You'll get less of a headache. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 July 5, 2007 QuoteBill is just pointing out the fact the in circumstances not unlike those of today, the people rose up together and overthrew the government. Today, such a thing would almost certainly never happen, without unbelievably harsh transgressions. All of that is explained in the Declaration, too:"...all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."The American people have become so accustomed to the "swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance", that they just take it, and don't bother to go out and vote and do something about it. I spent part of the 4th at a historic place in Houston, where someone dressed in colonial garb, read the Declaration of Independence, while flanked by musket-armed Minutemen. I too, was struck by some of the original grievances and other phrases, which are still applicable today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #13 July 5, 2007 QuoteKeith Olbermann has been REALLY impressing me lately, but he outdid himself in this ten minute speech from several days ago. I have seen several news websites carrying the entire transcript, but reading it just isn't as good as hearing his delivery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN-eGOtBGbg It just gets better, and better, as it goes along. Especially when he challenges Dubya to rise to the level of Richard Nixon.I don't know who that bloke is, and don't have much of an opinion either way on Bush and co., but he certainly does a good line in furious, scathing rhetoric. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #14 July 5, 2007 I agree. Holy shit, I better note this day on my calendar!The voter turnout in this country is pathetic...... -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #15 July 5, 2007 Quote It truely is sad that you think that is funny Kind of depends on which "that" we're talking about. That some people see things as being so dire? Yes. That is humorous... in a sad sort of way. No doubt, this country has many problems needing to be remedied. These problems don't mean this country is broken. Not by a long shot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #16 July 5, 2007 Quote I missed that one.. but it certainly lays out how broken our country is.. how shamefull they have acted. To say that our country is broken is to imply that at some point in the past things were nearly perfect. Why the hell didn't we just leave things alone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #17 July 5, 2007 >Why the hell didn't we just leave things alone? There are a lot of reasons, but the big one is fear. "Protect me from the french/the germans/the japanese/ the commies/the terrorists! I don't care what you have to do, just protect me!" It's an attitude that resurfaces with great regularity, and one that politicans capitalize on whenever it arises. "Why sure, I'll protect you. We just need internment camps/new taxes/the IRS/to repeal Habeas Corpus/to give me power to declare war. You don't want the commies/the japs/the germans/the terrorists to WIN, do you?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #18 July 5, 2007 Quote>Why the hell didn't we just leave things alone? There are a lot of reasons, but the big one is fear. "Protect me from the french/the germans/the japanese/ the commies/the terrorists! I don't care what you have to do, just protect me!" It's an attitude that resurfaces with great regularity, and one that politicans capitalize on whenever it arises. "Why sure, I'll protect you. We just need internment camps/new taxes/the IRS/to repeal Habeas Corpus/to give me power to declare war. You don't want the commies/the japs/the germans/the terrorists to WIN, do you?" So, at what point in the past were things nearly perfect? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #19 July 5, 2007 >So, at what point in the past were things nearly perfect? In the early 1800's, things were nearly perfect from a constitutional standpoint. The constitution had been ratified, the bill of rights had been accepted, the executive branch was just one of the three branches of government (not even the most important one!) and we just plain had not had time to implement a lot of new laws/taxes/government organizations. They weren't "nearly perfect" in other areas, of course. The constitution doesn't make one's life perfect, just gives people the chance to try to make it that way if they so choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #20 July 5, 2007 Quote>So, at what point in the past were things nearly perfect? In the early 1800's, things were nearly perfect from a constitutional standpoint. The constitution had been ratified, the bill of rights had been accepted, the executive branch was just one of the three branches of government (not even the most important one!) and we just plain had not had time to implement a lot of new laws/taxes/government organizations. They weren't "nearly perfect" in other areas, of course. The constitution doesn't make one's life perfect, just gives people the chance to try to make it that way if they so choose. Don't forget slavery. That was real popular. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 53 #21 July 5, 2007 Quote>So, at what point in the past were things nearly perfect? In the early 1800's, things were nearly perfect from a constitutional standpoint. The constitution had been ratified, the bill of rights had been accepted, the executive branch was just one of the three branches of government (not even the most important one!) and we just plain had not had time to implement a lot of new laws/taxes/government organizations. Bill, you almost sound like a Libertarian. Close??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #22 July 5, 2007 >Bill, you almost sound like a Libertarian. Close??? I believe in a lot of the libertarian's principles, but I don't think the libertarian party is too closely aligned with reality yet. I hope they start winning elections; their contact with the real world will likely mellow their stances into more implementable policies. In an ideal world we'd have a libertarian president, a democratic house and a republican senate. Nothing would get done unless it really, really needed doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NewGuy2005 53 #23 July 5, 2007 Quote >Bill, you almost sound like a Libertarian. Close??? I believe in a lot of the libertarian's principles, but I don't think the libertarian party is too closely aligned with reality yet. I hope they start winning elections; their contact with the real world will likely mellow their stances into more implementable policies. In an ideal world we'd have a libertarian president, a democratic house and a republican senate. Nothing would get done unless it really, really needed doing. Damn, Bill, I think I'm developing a Man-Crush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #24 July 5, 2007 QuoteBill is just pointing out the fact the in circumstances not unlike those of today, the people rose up together and overthrew the government. Today, such a thing would almost certainly never happen, without unbelievably harsh transgressions. Wrong on both counts. Circumstances then were much worse than today. They had no way of getting rid of a ruler who they had no voice in choosing, we do. Don't like the pres? The longest you'll have to endure is 8 years. That is just one expample. What "unbelievably harsh transgressions" are you referring to? The state militias being sent out to quell the insurection? Who do you think did the uprising before? If things ever got to the point of a significant portion of the population rising up against the government, since our military is all volunteer the chances of them firing upon large masses of their own friends and family is virtually nonexistent. Unless, of course, you feel our boys in uniform are just a bunch of deaf-dumb-and blind idiots who can't make an intelligent choice for themselves. I know they are capaple of making such a decision and have faith that they would make the right one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #25 July 5, 2007 Quote In an ideal world we'd have a libertarian president, a democratic house and a republican senate. Nothing would get done unless it really, really needed doing. In my ideal world, political parties would be banned. Every candidate would be compelled to run own his own merits, and not ride the coattails of a political party. And there would be no option on the voting ballot to vote for all the candidates of one party. The voter would be forced to actually know something about who he was voting for. And when an elected representative voted on a bill, he would be expected to think for himself, and not vote the way the party told him."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites