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billvon

The Declaration of Independence

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>Ann Coulter nailed you and yours . . .

Say no more, say no more! Ann Coulter's idea of public debate involves calling people faggots. She publically wishes for people's deaths, and regrets that Timothy McVeigh didn't strike New York instead. She once claimed that the widows of 9/11 enjoyed their husband's deaths. Her idea of intellectual discussion involves hoping to execute members of her 'opposition' so the rest can be cowed into obedience to her ideals. She thinks disabled Vietnam veterans caused us "to lose the war." (To her credit, she refrained from actually spitting on him.)

In other words, if Ann Coulter has bad things to say about me, I'm glad! It means I'm doing something right - and I am very glad to be so different from her that she hates me.

>. . . with this "blame the victim " shit.

So now Ann Coulter is attacking the right wing? Odd. What, did she get hit on the head and gain some IQ points or something?

There, you did it again!!

YOUR idea of debate is trying to smear someone with which you do not agree by using parts and pieces of a sentence and using it completely out of context. Her points are valid and spot on!!! (They are used in the context of those she is replying to based on comments made by them. That and thier actions which you and yours try to say is off limits because they are boo hoo victims boo hoo) Yours comments and replys are misleading and border on being lies. The same shit you do with my comments. Come on billvon you have been caught in your off angle little practice. Time to try something new like, how about and honest debate??
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Say no more, say no more! Ann Coulter's idea of public debate involves calling people faggots.



and around here, some people make some profoundly stupid analogies, thinking they are make solid arguements.

This whole Kent State comparison to the potential threat of using the military to control the overall population is fucking moronic. So is the comparison of present-day life in America to colonial 1775.

Sometimes I just want to yell - Hey you stupid fucking whiners. Pull your heads out of your asses and look around. I mean really look around. Wipe that shit out of eyes.

You never had it so good. In the history of man, no one ever had it so good.

So while you're bitchin' and moanin' about how retchedly bad things are in this country, about how George Bush has done irreparable harm to this country and destroyed the Constitution, don't begrudge those who consider the present as being a pretty awesome time to be alive.
Unfortunatly they can't. To do so minimizes thier (perceved) political advantage[:/]
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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they DON'T have the right to VIOLENTLY protest.

Isn't that how the Revolutionary War started?

That said, Kent State was ugly. There had been vandalism a couple of days before. But 2 of the people shot weren't involved (I guess they were the collateral damage :(), and the NG didn't focus on the people close by.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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>If things ever got to the point of a significant portion of the
>population rising up against the government, since our military is all
>volunteer the chances of them firing upon large masses of their own
>friends and family is virtually nonexistent.

Right. No US military unit would ever, for example, fire into a crowd of college students who were just demonstrating on a college campus. And we'd certainly never intern an entire race of people just because they came from the same country as a country we were fighting in a war.

And we would certainly NEVER, EVER be able to raise an army to fire on their brothers if, say, half the country tried to secede from the rest of it. We'd just let them go. Because the alternative would be a war where brother fought brother, hundreds of thousands died and entire states were systematically destroyed. And we'd never be that dumb. Right?

>Unless, of course, you feel our boys in uniform are just a bunch of
>deaf-dumb-and blind idiots who can't make an intelligent choice for
>themselves.

Hmm. I think you just called 2,200,000 Union soldiers "deaf dumb and blind idiots!"



You make it sound as if the military showed up and starting firing while keeping a score card. Thats why watching the History Channel sometimes can give you a clearer picture of the events that took place that day from both sides.

Many students were not peacfully assembled but looking for trouble.

But with great reflection you are very right, we are capable of raising armies that will without much regard fire on their fellow citizens...Ruby Ridge comes to mind.

But hey I'm just a little fella trying to make sence of it all.

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>Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.

So your teachers were on the hill with the shooters? Wow! They should volunteer their stories; they'd no doubt make millions by proving that the official stories of Kent State were all wrong . . .

Conspiracy theories are indeed fun, but generally not supportable unless you really, really want to believe them.



No, they weren't on the hill with the shooters. One was off to the side app. 200 ft. away when the shooting started, the other was watching the events unfold for the last few days and was keeping well away from the protesters, knowing full well they were hoping to cause trouble and he didn't want any part of it.
They DID tell their stories to investigators, but they weren't trying to prove or insinuate any blame in doing so, much less pushing any "conspiracy theory".
So, in defense of two people I have a lot of respect for, take your sarcastic attitude toward them and stick it where the sun don't shine.
Go ahead and ban me, I don't care. But I won't stand by and let you call my former teachers a couple of liars just because you don't like what they saw.

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[Yep, you're right, you were there and saw the whole thing. My teachers weren't really there, they just lied to their classes and somehow got fake degrees from Kent State.
Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.



I wasn't at Kent State.

Just because they were "there" doesn't mean squat. A lot of people "was there" at Kent State and other places of social tradgedy and "saw" whatever they were later told they saw, or saw what their personal agendas/politics wanted them to see. We have two eyes, which means we can see whatever we want to see from either side of an issue.
Some here see the US in a dire position, and others see that everything is pretty much alright.
But we're all "there."



Being there and watching the events happen in front of you over several days doesn't mean squat?? Maybe not in your reality, but in most peoples', and the court's, it does mean squat. In fact, people can be tried, found guilty, and executed based on eyewitness testimony. Second-hand info, though, usually won't even get an arrest warrant issued.
Don't mean squat? I beg to differ.

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Sometimes I just want to yell - Hey you stupid fucking whiners. Pull your heads out of your asses and look around. I mean really look around. Wipe that shit out of eyes.

You never had it so good. In the history of man, no one ever had it so good.

So while you're bitchin' and moanin' about how retchedly bad things are in this country, about how George Bush has done irreparable harm to this country and destroyed the Constitution, don't begrudge those who consider the present as being a pretty awesome time to be alive.



Hmm.....I'm seeing a pattern here. Members of one voting block seem to think that if you're comfortable, then that's all that matters. Who cares if my government tramples on the Constitution. So long as I can get good TV reception, I'm good. Who cares if we kill thousands of people in another country because of our energy addiction. So long as the juice is flowing and I'm not inconvenienced in the slightest, no problem. Who cares if immigrants are being kept as slaves in Florida. Fruit's and veggies are cheap and that's what matters. Who cares if slave labor is used, the environment is trashed and people are dying of chemical poisoning. The electronic crap that I just have to have is dirt cheap and we don't have to dispose of the waste on our continent. Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. Whatever it takes to make me comfortable, that's what's really the most important thing.

That sound about right?

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[Yep, you're right, you were there and saw the whole thing. My teachers weren't really there, they just lied to their classes and somehow got fake degrees from Kent State.
Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.



I wasn't at Kent State.

Just because they were "there" doesn't mean squat. A lot of people "was there" at Kent State and other places of social tradgedy and "saw" whatever they were later told they saw, or saw what their personal agendas/politics wanted them to see. We have two eyes, which means we can see whatever we want to see from either side of an issue.
Some here see the US in a dire position, and others see that everything is pretty much alright.
But we're all "there."


Being there and watching the events happen in front of you over several days doesn't mean squat?? Maybe not in your reality, but in most peoples', and the court's, it does mean squat. In fact, people can be tried, found guilty, and executed based on eyewitness testimony. Second-hand info, though, usually won't even get an arrest warrant issued.
Don't mean squat? I beg to differ.


[:/]You UTTERLY missed the point. Think about what I posted without your angst in the process, it might make more sense to you.
Maybe the story of the 5 blind men and the elephant might help.

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Hmm.....I'm seeing a pattern here. Members of one voting block seem to think that if you're comfortable, then that's all that matters. Who cares if my government tramples on the Constitution. So long as I can get good TV reception, I'm good. Who cares if we kill thousands of people in another country because of our energy addiction. So long as the juice is flowing and I'm not inconvenienced in the slightest, no problem. Who cares if immigrants are being kept as slaves in Florida. Fruit's and veggies are cheap and that's what matters. Who cares if slave labor is used, the environment is trashed and people are dying of chemical poisoning. The electronic crap that I just have to have is dirt cheap and we don't have to dispose of the waste on our continent. Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em all. Whatever it takes to make me comfortable, that's what's really the most important thing.

That sound about right?



And another voting block spends all their time obsessing over matters that have zero impact on them directly, going about their lives caught up in a doom and gloom fantasy... kind of a neuroses gone wild mentality, while those around take advantage of all that life has to offer.

Your turn. ;)

BTW This is a really dumb game. :S

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And another voting block spends all their time obsessing over matters that have zero impact on them directly, ...



That's correct. They, well, some of them realize that they're not being impacted directly as a result of their actions but that the impact is being absorbed by a third, fourth or fifth party. That bothers them....I mean us.

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[Yep, you're right, you were there and saw the whole thing. My teachers weren't really there, they just lied to their classes and somehow got fake degrees from Kent State.
Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.



I wasn't at Kent State.

Just because they were "there" doesn't mean squat. A lot of people "was there" at Kent State and other places of social tradgedy and "saw" whatever they were later told they saw, or saw what their personal agendas/politics wanted them to see. We have two eyes, which means we can see whatever we want to see from either side of an issue.
Some here see the US in a dire position, and others see that everything is pretty much alright.
But we're all "there."


Being there and watching the events happen in front of you over several days doesn't mean squat?? Maybe not in your reality, but in most peoples', and the court's, it does mean squat. In fact, people can be tried, found guilty, and executed based on eyewitness testimony. Second-hand info, though, usually won't even get an arrest warrant issued.
Don't mean squat? I beg to differ.


[:/]You UTTERLY missed the point. Think about what I posted without your angst in the process, it might make more sense to you.
Maybe the story of the 5 blind men and the elephant might help.


I believe I got your point the first time. Those who were there know what happened. How and why it happened is what changes according to their own point of view. Both of my teachers who were there and watched history unfold were students at the time. One would think they would try to place all the blame on th NG yet they didn't, instead they told what they saw and let us, the listeners, decide for ourselves who was right and who was wrong. I give them a lot of credit for that, being as it was their classmates and their fellow students...their peers...who were fired upon and died that day.
Kinda like a blind man standing at the end of the elephant, holding onto a part that is long and slender when suddenly he is covered with a warm, wet, smelly substance. He could either...
a) Be holding the trunk and got vomited on...
b) Be holding the tail and got pooped on or....
c) It's a male elephant and he got..you know...:o

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Those who were there know what happened. How and why it happened is what changes according to their own point of view



You better believe that is the case.. if you supported the war.. you probably thought it was ok to shoot down unarmed civilians who were "rioting"

Do you know WHY the protests were happening at the time?

I have a very good friend.. who is fairly conservative and is a US Postal Inspector....who at the time was a hippie.. and is a graduate of Kent State University.. as is his wife. Both of them were there that day.. and in the line of fire. Shall we say they have an interesting story to tell and it was that the guard had no justification for opening up on their fellow Americans. It was part of what was tearing us apart as a country at the time.. a stupid war.. halfway around the world supported by a bunch of people who did not have to go to that war..but had no problem sending off others to do their bidding.... for no apparent good reason....based on lies.

AND lets not forget.. thinking that deadly force on thier countrymen was completely justified.

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>Isn't that how the Revolutionary War started?

Indeed!

And I saw an amusing comment from one of Bush's speeches over the 4th of July, referring to the Revolutionary War:

-----------
America's victory was far from certain. In other words, when we celebrated the first 4th of July celebration, our struggle for independence was far from certain. Citizens had to struggle for six more years to finally determine the outcome of the Revolutionary War.

We were a small band of freedom-loving patriots taking on the most powerful empire in the world.
------------

He later pressed the fact that the war in Iraq has been going on a long time, and that's to be expected; after all, it took us six years. (Except in 1776, the most powerful empire in the world - lost.)

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From the Onion:American Voices section:

Bush Likens Terror War To U.S. Independence
In a speech at Mount Vernon, President Bush likened the war on terror to the Revolutionary War. What do you think?


Dave Kyanka,
Hog Butcher
"I'm confused. Are we the Americans or the British in that analogy?"

Paul Boruff,
Croupier
"He's just pandering to the crowd. In Atlantic City, he likened the war to keno."

Lenette Swanton,
Employment Counselor
"That's probably the least ridiculous, least globally detrimental comparison Bush has ever made."
Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

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Those who were there know what happened. How and why it happened is what changes according to their own point of view



You better believe that is the case.. if you supported the war.. you probably thought it was ok to shoot down unarmed civilians who were "rioting"

Do you know WHY the protests were happening at the time?

I have a very good friend.. who is fairly conservative and is a US Postal Inspector....who at the time was a hippie.. and is a graduate of Kent State University.. as is his wife. Both of them were there that day.. and in the line of fire. Shall we say they have an interesting story to tell and it was that the guard had no justification for opening up on their fellow Americans. It was part of what was tearing us apart as a country at the time.. a stupid war.. halfway around the world supported by a bunch of people who did not have to go to that war..but had no problem sending off others to do their bidding.... for no apparent good reason....based on lies.

AND lets not forget.. thinking that deadly force on thier countrymen was completely justified.



According to my friends who were there it was a matter of time before something bad happened. The protestors stepped up the level of their violence each time an attempt was made to disperse the crowd, who were already violating the law. As one of them told me, he was surprised the NG kept their heads as long as they did.
It's a shame that innocent onlookers were killed and injured, blame that on those who were stupid enough to throw rocks at men with guns.

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It's a shame that innocent onlookers were killed and injured, blame that on those who were stupid enough to throw rocks at men with guns.



So.. basically ... you are ok with the death penalty and a bit of collateral damage is just fine because some tool tosses a rock or two at the cops....Nothing has changed... and oh.. by the way...


a stupid war.. halfway around the world supported by a bunch of people who did not have to go to that war..but had no problem sending off others to do their bidding.... for no apparent good reason....based on lies.

Sound familiar??

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So.. basically ... you are ok with the death penalty and a bit of collateral damage is just fine because some tool tosses a rock or two at the cops....Nothing has changed...



Where the hell did you get that idea??? You have a fine way of twisting what someone says. :S

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a stupid war.. halfway around the world supported by a bunch of people who did not have to go to that war..but had no problem sending off others to do their bidding.... for no apparent good reason....based on lies.

Sound familiar??



www.murrayscheese.com

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Ah .. one of my favorite administration apologists has spoken.. MAN its gonna be a long 10 years or so.. having to listen to views you guys cant handle:S:S:S:S

How are you going to manage to post anything for two whole days...... all that suffering from EIB withdrawals has gotta hurt.

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I agree. Holy shit, I better note this day on my calendar!;)

The voter turnout in this country is pathetic......

And when they do turn out to vote, ah. them damn new fangled electronic voting machines....[:/]
I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

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