The Declaration of Independence

[Amazon 7]

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If things ever got to the point of a significant portion of the population rising up against the government, since our military is all volunteer the chances of them firing upon large masses of their own friends and family is virtually nonexistent

Kent State proves you very wrong.

[willard 0]

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Do you really have it so bad?

Personally? Nope. But neither did most people in the colonies in 1775. Life was (relatively) good.

Sure was. Especially if you liked paying taxes and not getting anything in return, etc.

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It is a sign of an intelligent being that he can care about things beyond his own personal comfort. During the 60's my father campaigned for civil rights for blacks, even though he was not himself black. Nowadays I campaign for gay rights and I protest the war in Iraq, even though I'm not gay and I am at little risk for being killed by a US soldier or an Iraqi insurgent.

And you are free to do those things without fear of being imprisoned, something that wasn't true in the mid 1700s.

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Our lifestyles have changed dramatically. So?

Do you feel for better or for worse?

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Or removed from office, as allowed by the constitution this country was founded on.

If GW is so evil then why is he still in office? Are we so stupid as to elect representatives who would allow such an evil person to remain in power?

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Perhaps it's all the bitching you are doing in return that's giving you that headache.

All my bitching is nothing compared to those who dislike our President. I voted for GW...TWICE...and am proud to say so. The alternatives were unimaginable.

[Zipp0 1]

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since our military is all volunteer the chances of them firing upon large masses of their own friends and family is virtually nonexistent.

Hmmmm.... ever hear of the Kent State massacre? Troops fired on and killed a bunch of kids. Don't fool yourself, it can happen.

Have you been in the military?

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Unless, of course, you feel our boys in uniform are just a bunch of deaf-dumb-and blind idiots who can't make an intelligent choice for themselves.

Not at all. But they refuse orders, even unlawful ones, at their own peril. And in a state of marshal law, the order to shoot civilians might be lawful.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Royd 0]

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They weren't "nearly perfect" in other areas, of course. The constitution doesn't make one's life perfect, just gives people the chance to try to make it that way if they so choose.

Is that as I choose for myself, or as others choose for me?

[billvon 3,111]

>If things ever got to the point of a significant portion of the
>population rising up against the government, since our military is all
>volunteer the chances of them firing upon large masses of their own
>friends and family is virtually nonexistent.

Right. No US military unit would ever, for example, fire into a crowd of college students who were just demonstrating on a college campus. And we'd certainly never intern an entire race of people just because they came from the same country as a country we were fighting in a war.

And we would certainly NEVER, EVER be able to raise an army to fire on their brothers if, say, half the country tried to secede from the rest of it. We'd just let them go. Because the alternative would be a war where brother fought brother, hundreds of thousands died and entire states were systematically destroyed. And we'd never be that dumb. Right?

>Unless, of course, you feel our boys in uniform are just a bunch of
>deaf-dumb-and blind idiots who can't make an intelligent choice for
>themselves.

Hmm. I think you just called 2,200,000 Union soldiers "deaf dumb and blind idiots!"

[billvon 3,111]

>Sure was. Especially if you liked paying taxes and not getting
>anything in return, etc.

Sorta like today, eh?

>Do you feel for better or for worse?

Mostly for the better.

>If GW is so evil then why is he still in office?

Because he hasn't been impeached yet and has not resigned yet.

>Are we so stupid as to elect
>representatives who would allow such an evil person to remain in power?

Yes. Most people don't know what's in the Bill of Rights.

>All my bitching is nothing compared to those who dislike our President. I
>voted for GW...TWICE...and am proud to say so. The alternatives were
>unimaginable.

I can imagine them quite easily, actually.

[mnealtx 0]

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It truely is sad that you think that is funny

What's funny is people that think Olbermann is today's Edward R. Murrow, and not a sockpuppet for Moveon.org and the Kos kids...

He's every bit as much a sensationalist as Limbaugh or Franken.

http://www.olbermannwatch.com/

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[willard 0]

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>Sure was. Especially if you liked paying taxes and not getting
>anything in return, etc.

Sorta like today, eh?

***What....you get no police or fire services? You somehow are not allowed to visit state and national parks? I could go on.***

>Do you feel for better or for worse?

Mostly for the better.

>If GW is so evil then why is he still in office?

Because he hasn't been impeached yet and has not resigned yet.

>Are we so stupid as to elect
>representatives who would allow such an evil person to remain in power?

Yes. Most people don't know what's in the Bill of Rights.

>All my bitching is nothing compared to those who dislike our President. I
>voted for GW...TWICE...and am proud to say so. The alternatives were
>unimaginable.

I can imagine them quite easily, actually.

***That is the difference between you and I.***

[willard 0]

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since our military is all volunteer the chances of them firing upon large masses of their own friends and family is virtually nonexistent.

Hmmmm.... ever hear of the Kent State massacre? Troops fired on and killed a bunch of kids. Don't fool yourself, it can happen.

Have you been in the military?

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Unless, of course, you feel our boys in uniform are just a bunch of deaf-dumb-and blind idiots who can't make an intelligent choice for themselves.

Not at all. But they refuse orders, even unlawful ones, at their own peril. And in a state of marshal law, the order to shoot civilians might be lawful.

a: No, never been in the military. History of back problems kept me on their "do not include" list.

b: Were you are Kent State when the shootings occurred? I had two teachers in high school who were there that day and witnessed what happened. Do not let yourself think it was a case of some poor innocent college kids who did nothing wrong being fired upon by mean spirited national guardsmen.
The kids had been allowed to demonstrate freely until they started making threats and refusing to allow others who were NOT demonstrating to go on with their business. When ordered to disburse they instead started throwing rocks, sticks, bottles, and whatever they could get their hands on at the troops.
The guardsmen were not without fault themselves, but have no doubt the students carried 90% of the blame for what happened. That statement is not my own, rather the consensus of two eyewitnesses who were there that day.
Those kids made two mistakes that day.
1) They pushed a group of confused men with rifles past their breaking point, and
2) They started a gunfight and only brought rocks.
Sorry, no sympathy here.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Bashing FDR again Bill?

[billvon 3,111]

>What....you get no police or fire services? You somehow are not allowed
>to visit state and national parks? I could go on.***

Never have needed police or fire services. I do indeed go to national parks, and pay the entrance fees.

Now, you could (quite validly) say that services like the military (to defend me from invaders) or the police (to protect me from some future crime) are _potential_ services that I am paying for. Problem is that's precisely what Great Britain was claiming when it came to why the colonists should stay loyal to the King. The strongest empire on the planet would protect them from indians, invaders and lawlessness! Why shouldn't they be paying taxes?

>I can imagine them quite easily, actually.

***That is the difference between you and I.***

Looks like it!

[Royd 0]

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Never have needed police or fire services.

So all of traffic problems on those California freeways just solve themselves, and all of those wildfires just put themselves out?

[billvon 3,111]

>So all of traffic problems on those California freeways just solve >themselves, and all of those wildfires just put themselves out?

So in colonial times those sea lanes just defended themselves, and the local indians were repelled by just looking at them funny, eh?

[billvon 3,111]

>The guardsmen were not without fault themselves

Why did they never stand trial, then?

>but have no doubt the students carried 90% of the blame for what happened.

This blame-the-victims thing is becoming quite a right winger staple lately, and I can't figure out why. Do you think anyone buys it?

>They pushed a group of confused men with rifles past their breaking point . . .

The Guard were retreating and were about to go behind the lee of a hill. 29 Guardsmen turned and fired just before they got behind hill after they huddled for a moment. They fired 67 rounds into the backs of fleeing students, and continued to fire for about a minute. That's not "a few confused troops acting in self defense." That's premeditated murder.

If you can justify that, you can justify anything. Fortunately most people do not twist logic so.

[rushmc 23]

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>The guardsmen were not without fault themselves

Why did they never stand trial, then?

>but have no doubt the students carried 90% of the blame for what happened.

This blame-the-victims thing is becoming quite a right winger staple lately, and I can't figure out why. Do you think anyone buys it?

>They pushed a group of confused men with rifles past their breaking point . . .

The Guard were retreating and were about to go behind the lee of a hill. 29 Guardsmen turned and fired just before they got behind hill after they huddled for a moment. They fired 67 rounds into the backs of fleeing students, and continued to fire for about a minute. That's not "a few confused troops acting in self defense." That's premeditated murder.

If you can justify that, you can justify anything. Fortunately most people do not twist logic so.

Ann Coulter nailed you and yours to the wall with this "blame the victim " shit. You and yours create the victim and then claim they are off limits. Nice try but wrong again

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[wmw999 2,586]

OK, Bill, even I'll call bullshit on the comment about standing trial. Plenty of innocent people stand trial.

That said, the NG guys were not deployed well. Time were volatile, and people weren't properly sheeplike then. They thought they had the right to protest.

Getting shot is not an appropriate punishment for engaging in a protest, even one where you have the gall to interfere with someone going to class. There have been a LOT of protests where people got in the way of others trying to go about their business (business folks during Economic summit conferences, patients, doctors, and staff at abortion clinics, just as a couple of examples).

Saying that any infraction justifies the maximum penalty is wrong. It's what got us into Iraq in the first place. There should be some judgment that goes along with the power to inflict penalties, and that was sorely lacking in Kent State.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnealtx 0]

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people weren't properly sheeplike then. They thought they had the right to protest.

Waving the bullshit flag on that one, Wendy.... people had and still have the right to protest...they DON'T have the right to VIOLENTLY protest.

The rest of the post, I agree with for the most part.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Zipp0 1]

Confused men? I thought they were the best and brightest?!

Aw, screw it you're right - Gun down them smelly hippes! That'll learn em'!

Amazing.

BTW - several kids walking to class, playing no part in the protest were shot dead. Oh well, everybody dies someday!!!

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Zipp0 1]

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Ann Coulter nailed you and yours to the wall with this "blame the victim " shit.

She also thought that Canada fought in Vietnam, so there's that.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIsvMSEYiK4

Ignorant cunt.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 3,111]

>Ann Coulter nailed you and yours . . .

Say no more, say no more! Ann Coulter's idea of public debate involves calling people faggots. She publically wishes for people's deaths, and regrets that Timothy McVeigh didn't strike New York instead. She once claimed that the widows of 9/11 enjoyed their husband's deaths. Her idea of intellectual discussion involves hoping to execute members of her 'opposition' so the rest can be cowed into obedience to her ideals. She thinks disabled Vietnam veterans caused us "to lose the war." (To her credit, she refrained from actually spitting on him.)

In other words, if Ann Coulter has bad things to say about me, I'm glad! It means I'm doing something right - and I am very glad to be so different from her that she hates me.

>. . . with this "blame the victim " shit.

So now Ann Coulter is attacking the right wing? Odd. What, did she get hit on the head and gain some IQ points or something?

[willard 0]

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>The guardsmen were not without fault themselves

Why did they never stand trial, then?

>but have no doubt the students carried 90% of the blame for what happened.

This blame-the-victims thing is becoming quite a right winger staple lately, and I can't figure out why. Do you think anyone buys it?

>They pushed a group of confused men with rifles past their breaking point . . .

The Guard were retreating and were about to go behind the lee of a hill. 29 Guardsmen turned and fired just before they got behind hill after they huddled for a moment. They fired 67 rounds into the backs of fleeing students, and continued to fire for about a minute. That's not "a few confused troops acting in self defense." That's premeditated murder.

If you can justify that, you can justify anything. Fortunately most people do not twist logic so.

Yep, you're right, you were there and saw the whole thing. My teachers weren't really there, they just lied to their classes and somehow got fake degrees from Kent State.
Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.

[livendive 8]

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It truely is sad that you think that is funny

What's funny is people that think Olbermann is today's Edward R. Murrow, and not a sockpuppet for Moveon.org and the Kos kids...

He's every bit as much a sensationalist as Limbaugh or Franken.

http://www.olbermannwatch.com/

I don't have time to read that link, so I'll just say this. Limbaugh and Franken usually sensationalize facts to appeal to their base. I wouldn't put Olbermann in the same league, but even assuming you're right, the truth resides despite the sensationalism.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 3,111]

>Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.

So your teachers were on the hill with the shooters? Wow! They should volunteer their stories; they'd no doubt make millions by proving that the official stories of Kent State were all wrong . . .

Conspiracy theories are indeed fun, but generally not supportable unless you really, really want to believe them.

[DSE 5]

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[Yep, you're right, you were there and saw the whole thing. My teachers weren't really there, they just lied to their classes and somehow got fake degrees from Kent State.
Thanks for your insight, but no thanks. I'll believe what my teachers, who WERE there, told me.

I wasn't at Kent State.

Just because they were "there" doesn't mean squat. A lot of people "was there" at Kent State and other places of social tradgedy and "saw" whatever they were later told they saw, or saw what their personal agendas/politics wanted them to see. We have two eyes, which means we can see whatever we want to see from either side of an issue.
Some here see the US in a dire position, and others see that everything is pretty much alright.
But we're all "there."

[NCclimber 0]

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Say no more, say no more! Ann Coulter's idea of public debate involves calling people faggots.

and around here, some people make some profoundly stupid analogies, thinking they are make solid arguements.

This whole Kent State comparison to the potential threat of using the military to control the overall population is fucking moronic. So is the comparison of present-day life in America to colonial 1775.

Sometimes I just want to yell - Hey you stupid fucking whiners. Pull your heads out of your asses and look around. I mean really look around. Wipe that shit out of eyes.

You never had it so good. In the history of man, no one ever had it so good.

So while you're bitchin' and moanin' about how retchedly bad things are in this country, about how George Bush has done irreparable harm to this country and destroyed the Constitution, don't begrudge those who consider the present as being a pretty awesome time to be alive.