warpedskydiver 0 #26 July 3, 2007 Quote Quote I was referring specifically to Ammonium Perchlorate which you chose to comment on. You know the stuff that registered at 3.5 on the Richter scale in the video I just linked to. Grain elevators can be made to explode. Doesn't mean that corn is an explosive. Gas cans can be made to explode. Doesn't mean gasoline is an explosive. APCP is a deflagrating agent, not an explosive. 4000 tons of real explosives would have made that plant accident look like a firecracker. can you imagine 4000 tons of anfo(mixed properly) used to make an explosion? And anfo has no "CRACK" to it Seismographs in china would register it. in open pit mining there is actually not too much of a seismic charge used. The less the better. I have seen less than two gallons per hole used and the lifting charge it provided was substantial. the entire mass of one side of a hill was moved...by alot (gravity provided the real force that was needed) can you imagine 4000 tons of RDX? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #27 July 3, 2007 [governmental official]Hey gravity can be dangerous "let's regulate that!!!"[/governmental official] *Emphasis on mental Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #28 July 3, 2007 QuoteQuoteI was referring specifically to Ammonium Perchlorate which you chose to comment on. You know the stuff that registered at 3.5 on the Richter scale in the video I just linked to. Grain elevators can be made to explode. Doesn't mean that corn is an explosive. Gas cans can be made to explode. Doesn't mean gasoline is an explosive. APCP is a deflagrating agent, not an explosive. Yep but you already wrote this: Quote APCP can not be made to explode Like I said tell it to the people of Henderson. 3.5 on the Richter scale. I am already familiar with fuel air mix and similar deflagrations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #29 July 3, 2007 Quote Quote Quote I was referring specifically to Ammonium Perchlorate which you chose to comment on. You know the stuff that registered at 3.5 on the Richter scale in the video I just linked to. Grain elevators can be made to explode. Doesn't mean that corn is an explosive. Gas cans can be made to explode. Doesn't mean gasoline is an explosive. APCP is a deflagrating agent, not an explosive. 4000 tons of real explosives would have made that plant accident look like a firecracker. can you imagine 4000 tons of anfo(mixed properly) used to make an explosion? Imagine 4000 tons of Hydrogen in a thermonuclear reaction!!! That'd make your anfo look like a damp match head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #30 July 3, 2007 Quotein open pit mining there is actually not too much of a seismic charge used. The less the better. I have seen less than two gallons per hole used WTF are you talking about? Seismic charges? Two gallons of what? Most open pits I know use _about_ 1 tonne of explosives per hole, with 2 or 4 boosters (PETN) of 16 onces each.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #31 July 3, 2007 Quote 4000 tons of gasoline would have been really nasty as well. Gasoline needs to be mixed well with air or other oxidizer before it will deflagrate, as do many other substances getting mentioned here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #32 July 3, 2007 QuoteNEWSFLASH: SMOKELESS POWDER IS NOT AN EXPLOSIVE. Actually, if initiated properly, nitrocellulose will detonate high order. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #33 July 3, 2007 A question along these lines. What happens if I shoot Tannerite www.tannerite.com with a 7.62x54 Super Incendiary (raufous type) round http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=33sitting beside a bucket of diesel and fertilizer? I think the answer would be - something super fucking cool! If I'm stupid enough to try, there will be video. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #34 July 3, 2007 >DEFLAGRATION has a different definition than explosion. APCP is NOT an >explosive, and it cannot be detonated. You guys are funny! I think most people would understand that an event involving a rocket propellant catching on fire and . . . (doing something incredibly violent) . . that killed a bunch of people, caused a quite visible shock wave, blew out thousands of windows and caused 100 million dollars worth of damage is, in fact, an explosion. "For my next act, I will change the definition of "flammable" - and therefore claim that gasoline is not flammable because it is in fact INflammable! Take that, all you idiots! Now give me my cigarette back - I gotta fill up my truck." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #35 July 3, 2007 Quote Quote BATFE should be a friggin convenience store, not a government agency... It is. I think its called the Bottle Shop and its in Coolidge, AZ. You can buy (drive though too) alcohol, fire arms, ammo, smokes (but no rolling papers - because thats mostly used illegally). Fun to browse in that store. J Outstanding!!!!!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #36 July 3, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteI was referring specifically to Ammonium Perchlorate which you chose to comment on. You know the stuff that registered at 3.5 on the Richter scale in the video I just linked to. Grain elevators can be made to explode. Doesn't mean that corn is an explosive. Gas cans can be made to explode. Doesn't mean gasoline is an explosive. APCP is a deflagrating agent, not an explosive. Yep but you already wrote this: Quote APCP can not be made to explode Like I said tell it to the people of Henderson. 3.5 on the Richter scale. I am already familiar with fuel air mix and similar deflagrations. If you put a blasting cap in APCP and set it off, it just shatters the APCP, which does NOT explode. Most times it doesn't even burn. If you wrap APCP in det cord and set it off, the APCP just shatters and doesn't explode. APCP is NOT an explosive. You can make an explosion with almost anything flammable if you confine it (including wheat flour, gasline, and lycopodium spores), but it does not mean the fuel is an explosive. APCP is not an explosive, any more than gasoline is an explosive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #37 July 3, 2007 Quote>DEFLAGRATION has a different definition than explosion. APCP is NOT an >explosive, and it cannot be detonated. You guys are funny! I think most people would understand that an event involving a rocket propellant catching on fire and . . . (doing something incredibly violent) . . that killed a bunch of people, caused a quite visible shock wave, blew out thousands of windows and caused 100 million dollars worth of damage is, in fact, an explosion. "For my next act, I will change the definition of "flammable" - and therefore claim that gasoline is not flammable because it is in fact INflammable! Take that, all you idiots! Now give me my cigarette back - I gotta fill up my truck." Is gasoline AN EXPLOSIVE? IS wheat flour AN EXPLOSIVE? "Most people" do not differentiate between explosions and deflagrations, but scientists do.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #38 July 3, 2007 Regardless of the explosive properties (or not) of small arms ammunition, they ARE considering this - and since when does .gov use ANY sort of logic in what they do? Small arms ammunition and components now... what else, next?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #39 July 3, 2007 >Regardless of the explosive properties (or not) of small arms >ammunition, they ARE considering this - and since when does .gov use >ANY sort of logic in what they do? If the attitudes reflected in this thread at all mirror the attitudes of the various industries that the OSHA rule would regulate - sounds like it's sorely needed. One explosion (sorry, rapid violent deflagration or whatever you'd prefer to call it) killed 8 people and caused $100 million in Henderson. If there are people in ammunition manufacturing facilities claiming "this stuff isn't an explosive! We don't need to worry about static electricity and all that crap" then perhaps spending some money on safety would prevent another $100 million multiple-fatality non explosion. However, I have a feeling most people in the industry take safety a bit more seriously than that. I'd have to look at the accident rate in ammunition manufacturing facilities to see if new regulations are called for. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #40 July 3, 2007 QuoteQuotein open pit mining there is actually not too much of a seismic charge used. The less the better. I have seen less than two gallons per hole used WTF are you talking about? Seismic charges? Two gallons of what? Most open pits I know use _about_ 1 tonne of explosives per hole, with 2 or 4 boosters (PETN) of 16 onces each. Not alot needed depending on the slope and composition of the soils. (in that case) of course if the situation is different you would need much more of a charge to get the earth moving there are many variables to this, including what needs to be accomplished. The depth and spacing of the holes is very important, And in my limited experience I noticed many engineers trying to use TOO MUCH EXPLOSIVE. you don't need to blow everything away, just lift it enough to let gravity do it's thing. Mining is different than say, an interstate route and grading plan. I will concede that pit mining was a poor example. also depends if you want to shear something or pulverize it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #41 July 3, 2007 Quote>Regardless of the explosive properties (or not) of small arms >ammunition, they ARE considering this - and since when does .gov use >ANY sort of logic in what they do? If the attitudes reflected in this thread at all mirror the attitudes of the various industries that the OSHA rule would regulate - sounds like it's sorely needed. One explosion (sorry, rapid violent deflagration or whatever you'd prefer to call it) killed 8 people and caused $100 million in Henderson. If there are people in ammunition manufacturing facilities claiming "this stuff isn't an explosive! We don't need to worry about static electricity and all that crap" then perhaps spending some money on safety would prevent another $100 million multiple-fatality non explosion. However, I have a feeling most people in the industry take safety a bit more seriously than that. I'd have to look at the accident rate in ammunition manufacturing facilities to see if new regulations are called for. If everything that CAN cause an explosion is going to be defined as "an explosive" and therefore regulated by BATFE, then BATFE will be regulating gasoline, kerosine, wheat dust, corn dust, corn starch (including organic body powder), wood dust, iron powder, aluminum powder, lycopodium spores, propane, butane, natural gas, hydrogen, lithium batteries, lead-acid car batteries, weed killer, fertilizer, electrolytic capacitors, steam generators, and a list that goes on and on. Or we can be sensible and differentiate real explosives from things that merely deflagrate or cause pressure waves when the confinement is released. APCP is not an explosive. If it were, it would be most unsuitable as rocket fuel. Exploding rockets are bad news, as Challenger showed us. And while on the topic of the Challenger, after the main tank EXPLODED, did you see what happened to the solid (APCP) boosters? Right - they didn't explode, but kept right on going.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #42 July 3, 2007 Quote Is gasoline AN EXPLOSIVE? IS wheat flour AN EXPLOSIVE? "Most people" do not differentiate between explosions and deflagrations, but scientists do. You need to compare apples with apples. There is no need to add an oxidant to AP, it's made ready to rock & roll, you do need to add it to fuel. Is a fuel air mix an explosive? The Federation of American Scientists seem to use the term rather readily: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/fae.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #43 July 3, 2007 Quote And while on the topic of the Challenger, after the main tank EXPLODED, did you see what happened to the solid (APCP) boosters? Right - they didn't explode, but kept right on going. Yep, the same boosters caused the accident. Tell me professor, how do you extinguish an APCP fire? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #44 July 3, 2007 Confinement and tamping is nearly everything John. BTW water makes a cool tamping device. especially for breaching kinda lessens the backblast ya knowreminds me of bugs bunny or the roadrunner with the ACME instant door in a box Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #45 July 3, 2007 QuoteConfinement and tamping is nearly everything John. What's the tamper in an FAE? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #46 July 3, 2007 it has everything it needs...no stinkin tamper needed unless you want to include the casing that is the beauty of it, the flash and pressure wave encompasses a large areaMOAB is a beast Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #47 July 3, 2007 I am positive John Kallend could explain it far better than I could Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #48 July 4, 2007 Quote If everything that CAN cause an explosion is going to be defined as "an explosive" and therefore regulated by BATFE, then BATFE will be regulating gasoline, kerosine, wheat dust, corn dust, corn starch (including organic body powder), wood dust, iron powder, aluminum powder, lycopodium spores, propane, butane, natural gas, hydrogen, lithium batteries, lead-acid car batteries, weed killer, fertilizer, electrolytic capacitors, steam generators, and a list that goes on and on. Wouldn't it be funny if they called matches "explosives" under similar terms, because they can burn. Can't allow matches to come within 50 feet of matches. Have to sell them one at a time, and run to the warehouse for each one. Maybe a fancy conveyor belt?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #49 July 4, 2007 >(including organic body powder) . . . . >Or we can be sensible and differentiate real explosives from things that >merely deflagrate or cause pressure waves when the confinement is >released. You're right, John. Solid rocket fuel is exactly the same as organic body powder. What idiot would think of handling solid rocket fuel more carefully than sawdust? I am glad we have people like you who make sure people do not waste their time with needless safety procedures to deal with things that are as safe as . . . sawdust. >APCP is not an explosive. If it were, it would be most unsuitable as rocket >fuel. Exploding rockets are bad news, as Challenger showed us. EXPLODING? John, you threw all your intellectual arguments away with that incredibly silly statement! That was a conflagration of hydrogen and oxygen. Nothing dangerous or explosive whatsoever. The suggestion that the combination of two completely safe substances could be dangerous indicates you don't know anything about chemistry. (Hint - look up what hydrogen and oxygen produce when combined.) Are you going to claim that water is explosive next? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #50 July 4, 2007 The sarcasm-fu is strong today.... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
