Libby Spared

[Zipp0 1]

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You seem pretty pissed about this pardon. Do you think we should do away with this executive privilege?

It might not be a bad idea. Or at the very least there shuld be some limits on its use.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Zipp0 1]

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But that's OK - when Hillary pardons Al Gore for anally raping the Bush twins, I don't want to hear the whining. Fair enough?

Where does that kind of hate come from?

It's not hate. I was trying to make the point that when someone on the left is pardoned for what you deem to be a horrible crime, I don't want to hear the right whining.

Or did you really think that I believed that Al Gore was planning to rape the Bush twins as some sort of revenge?

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[idrankwhat 0]

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My only question is about Rove. Everyone's all over Armitage about running his mouth but Rove does the same thing and gets a pass.

What are you talking about? "Everyone is all over Armitage"? Who? Are people calling for him to be prosecuted?

And what it is the Rove does? Outing (arguably) covert agents? Which agents?

Sorry, I meant "all over Armitage" as in rhetoric about being the source of the leak. Rove did the same thing with Matt Cooper. I think he did it twice but I can't remember the other instance specifically.

[Amazon 7]

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OK, I will tell you why ( and I know you know why). This was politcal pay back. Nothing more. You speak of the powers and seperation well, why then are you not outraged at the Senator that ran (behind the sences) the investigation?

Thank you for outing yourself as a TRUE Patriot of the far right..

To me.. if someone has SERVED this country ESPECIALLY in covert operations for the CIA... this country HAS to treat them better than this..

Glad to see the far right has a far different way of saying THANK YOU to those who have served.

This did not serve the interests of our country.. ONLY the FAR right political agenda.... which has yet again DAMAGED our ability to gain info that keeps us safe.

[NCclimber 0]

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OK, I will tell you why ( and I know you know why). This was politcal pay back. Nothing more. You speak of the powers and seperation well, why then are you not outraged at the Senator that ran (behind the sences) the investigation?

Thank you for outing yourself as a TRUE Patriot of the far right..

To me.. if someone has SERVED this country ESPECIALLY in covert operations for the CIA... this country HAS to treat them better than this..

Glad to see the far right has a far different way of saying THANK YOU to those who have served.

This did not serve the interests of our country.. ONLY the FAR right political agenda.... which has yet again DAMAGED our ability to gain info that keeps us safe.

It almost sounds like you still think Bush & Co. were behind the outing of Valerie Plame.

Almost.

[rushmc 23]

Reply to this.

There are more than a few lawyers saying that the conviction will not hold up on apeal. I don't know one way or the but my question to you is, should he win the apeal, should he have gone to jail? Should Fitgerald be jailed?

What are you going say should he be cleared?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sundevil777 102]

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And I will say again - that is immateriial. He was convicted. Anything else gets into speculation. A jury believed, beyond a reasonable doubt, that 4 felonies were committed. For that, the man should spend at least a few days behind bars.

You cannot hold ANY respect for our justice system if you throw out the juries' decision in this case.

Are there no instances, present or past, where you thing the criminal justice system has gone awry - where a pardon is appropriate?

We might disagree on which are worthy of a pardon, but surely there must be some.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,089]

>It almost sounds like you still think Bush & Co. were behind the
>outing of Valerie Plame.

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Cheney 'Authorized' Libby to Leak Classified Information

By Murray Waas, National Journal
© National Journal Group Inc.
Thursday, Feb. 9, 2006

Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, testified to a federal grand jury that he had been "authorized" by Cheney and other White House "superiors" in the summer of 2003 to disclose classified information to journalists to defend the Bush administration's use of prewar intelligence in making the case to go to war with Iraq, according to attorneys familiar with the matter, and to court records.
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A juror on the case remarked that they believed Libby had been "tasked by the vice president to go and talk to reporters."

[sundevil777 102]

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Vice President Dick Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, testified to a federal grand jury that he had been "authorized" by Cheney and other White House "superiors" in the summer of 2003 to disclose classified information to journalists to defend the Bush administration's use of prewar intelligence in making the case to go to war with Iraq, according to attorneys familiar with the matter, and to court records.

Quite right! Joe Wilson was spreading a bunch of bullshit. The executive office is within its rights to decide if some info is OK to declassify to defend itself.

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A juror on the case remarked that they believed Libby had been "tasked by the vice president to go and talk to reporters."

What one juror 'believed' is not relevant, especially because all the quote says is that the juror 'believes' that Libby was taked to TALK to reporters. What is wrong with that? Can't a chief of staff be tasked to talk to reporters?

What is important to remember is that Plame did not meet the standards within the covert intelligence act to where her supposed 'outing' would have been a crime. Sure, the CIA officially considered her covert, but the criteria for breaking the law requires much more than just an official covert status. Plame and her husband are responsible for her being outed. I think Plame and her husband should have been in trouble with the CIA for outing themselves, but they didn't want to make themselves look bad. Either way, it was well known she was a CIA operative, and she and her husband were responsible for that knowledge being commonplace.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Zipp0 1]

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Reply to this.

There are more than a few lawyers saying that the conviction will not hold up on apeal. I don't know one way or the but my question to you is, should he win the apeal, should he have gone to jail? Should Fitgerald be jailed?

What are you going say should he be cleared?

I'd say that LOTS and LOTS of convicted criminals waste away in jail with their cases on appeal. Why should this crook be any different? Because he wears a suit and is friends with the Veep? Sorry, no.

Should we let all convicted felons out of jail while they appeal? No.

So yes, he should have gone to jail, just like everyone else.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[billvon 3,089]

>Quite right!

So we're agreed that Cheney told Libby to leak classified information to defend Bush's methods. So far so good.

>What one juror 'believed' is not relevant . . .

I think perhaps you misunderstand how our justice system works. What the jurors believe is, indeed, all that IS relevant in a criminal trial. And somehow I suspect the jurors in this case are better informed on the details of it than you are.

>Either way, it was well known she was a CIA operative, and she and
>her husband were responsible for that knowledge being commonplace.

The "blame the victim" route is always popular, but is going to generate a lot of disgust within the community of non-Bush supporters.

[rushmc 23]

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Reply to this.

There are more than a few lawyers saying that the conviction will not hold up on apeal. I don't know one way or the but my question to you is, should he win the apeal, should he have gone to jail? Should Fitgerald be jailed?

What are you going say should he be cleared?

I'd say that LOTS and LOTS of convicted criminals waste away in jail with their cases on appeal. Why should this crook be any different? Because he wears a suit and is friends with the Veep? Sorry, no.

Should we let all convicted felons out of jail while they appeal? No.

So yes, he should have gone to jail, just like everyone else.

Well well, I sure hope you and yours do not get in the sites of a rogue political lawyer.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[sundevil777 102]

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>Quite right!

So we're agreed that Cheney told Libby to leak classified information to defend Bush's methods. So far so good.

The executive branch is allowed to decide that some info is OK to give to the press, it is within their powers. You can argue that the info should have remained secret, but that doesn't seem to be your contention. Cheney can ask for the CIA's opinion if it is OK to release info, but in the end it is their call.

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>What one juror 'believed' is not relevant . . .

I think perhaps you misunderstand how our justice system works.

I think perhaps you enjoy implying that people are stupid.

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What the jurors believe is, indeed, all that IS relevant in a criminal trial. And somehow I suspect the jurors in this case are better informed on the details of it than you are.

All that the juror said was that they believed Libby to have been tasked to talk to the press. SO WHAT? Indeed, that is irrelevant. It is irrelevant because it doesn't matter, it isn't illegal, it is expected of a chief of staff to be tasked with talking to the press. It is expected of a chief of staff to defend against false accusations by a self-outed CIA agent's husband.

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>Either way, it was well known she was a CIA operative, and she and
>her husband were responsible for that knowledge being commonplace.

The "blame the victim" route is always popular, but is going to generate a lot of disgust within the community of non-Bush supporters.

She's not a victim. She deserves to be blamed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,089]

>Cheney can ask for the CIA's opinion if it is OK to release info, but in the
>end it is their call.

So it is your opinion that Cheney did in fact reveal (or direct Libby to reveal) that Plame was working undercover, but that he had the right to do so?

>All that the juror said was that they believed Libby to have been tasked
>to talk to the press. SO WHAT?

If your "SO WHAT?" refers to your above-mentioned belief that Cheney did in fact authorize Plame's outing, then you are right - what the juror said merely reinforces the idea that Cheney directed the release of this information.

>She's not a victim. She deserves to be blamed.

So Libby is a victim of an unfair justice system, whereas Valerie Plame, a CIA employee who served the US government in an undercover capacity - and who has never been indicted for any crimes - is the real criminal here?

Perhaps you could extend this a bit to cover other 'injustices.' OJ Simpson is merely a victim of that evil woman Nicole! Paris Hilton is the real victim of unscrupulous, evil, celebrity-hating police officers, who all deserve to be fired for their role in causing her distress. Get on the bandwagon now!

As I've said before, the whole "victim culture" thing isn't going to play very well. No one believes that the poor, downtrodden, powerless administration is the victim of cunning, evil CIA women. (Well, other than the handful of Bush supporters left in the US.)

[mnealtx 0]

http://www.slate.com/id/2169718/

This sums it up pretty well, I think.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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Well well, I sure hope you and yours do not get in the sites of a rogue political lawyer.

Well the way the DOJ has been politicized by Karl Rove and Alberto Gonzales.. they have set the precedent.. I think that is a bad thing.. because I think in the next few years Political Hacks can do as they wish when prosecuting those of the other party rather than being objective and even handed.

[billvon 3,089]

Well, let's see.

He shouldn't get jail time for committing four felonies because . . . he worked for the White House? Or because he served his country well?

On June 21, 2007, the US Supreme Court in Rita v. United States upheld a prison sentence of 33 months for perjury committed in testimony to a grand jury, which is basically the same crime Libby committed, and the same sentence Libby got.

The defendant (Victor Rita) was a 25-year military veteran with 35 commendations, awards and medals for his military service, and in poor medical condition. No prior arrests or convictions. He said that the length of his prison term was unreasonable in light of his exemplary service to the country and his health circumstances.

The Supreme Court said that a sentence of 33 months of prison for perjury was reasonable for a decorated veteran with no priors in poor health, especially considering the average sentence for a crime like Libby/Rita's is 70 months. Do you believe that such veterans should go to jail, but people like Libby should go free?

Libby covered for the adminstration. Due to his efforts, Cheney was not called to the stand, where he would have to testify under oath - something that the administration has been fighting tooth and nail. The president is now rewarding his loyalty by freeing him. I think people who can't see that are being pretty willfully blind.

[gmanpilot 0]

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Cheney can ask for the CIA's opinion if it is OK to release info, but in the end it is their call.

According to the Executive Orders that govern that sort of thing, the authority to declassify information lies with the individual who classified it in the first place (CIA). They were not consulted, neither was the White House or Dept of State Offices of Security who grants clearances to WH and Administtration Stafers (including Rove, Armitage who disclosed classified info to Novak? without authorization...and they still have their clearance...the WH Office of Security never even investigated it). This whole thing stinks.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[Amazon 7]

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This sums it up pretty well, I think.

I am so glad you posted that....
GW is just following in the foosteps of his father in pardoning Caspar Wienberger.. Another lying republican political hack....who with his administration buddies truely believed they were above the laws of this land.

[mnealtx 0]

Oh, trust me... I knew the libs were going to jump all over that article... I just happen to agree with it. Y'all's opinions are equally as valid as mine..

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rushmc 23]

I think people who can't see that are being pretty willfully blind.

[rushmc 23]

Since no one else on the side you debate for cares to answer these questions let us see if you can.

First the background.
1 First day of the investigation Fitzgerald learns that Armatige gave Plames name to Novak
2 Within the first week Fitzgerald learns that Plames name being given out is not a crime.
3 Both of these FACTS Fitzgerald has admitted to.

Query, why should have the investigation continued?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mnealtx 0]

And another view...

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2RjNDYzNGIwNDNiOGUwOTMyODZhZDJmYzZhNDhkMGU=)

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,117]

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You imply that you've never come to the conclusion that someone was unfairly convicted, or a victim of prosecutorial misconduct.

The crime of Perjury is full of opportunity for prosecutors to abuse their power. Key prosecution witnesses had conflicting testimony, Fitzgerald didn't want to end the investigation when the original purpose was satisfied, so he manufactured a case against a previous adversary.

I like how Fred Thompson has the guts to plainly say he would pardon Libby. No Fear.

I strongly suspect that our prisons hold thousands pf people who have suffered far greater injustice than Libby. Would that The Decider had their interests at heart too. However, his record as governor of Texas shows that he doesn't care a hoot about "little people" in jail.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 23]

They can't answer back to any of the facts can they. So who is being political I wonder?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln