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jjiimmyyt

Guns and crime

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Instead of arguing about guns and whether they should be legal or not, here is a novel suggestion: Let us do something about the causes of crime and the reasons why it occurs.

Yes, there are some cunts out there that will do crime whatever but there are socio-economic reasons why people commit crimes. You don't see many middle class people jacking people on the street.

I am not anti-gun and held some WW2 stuff for a while that my step grandfather liberated but after a few months i realised I'd never use them for sport and as a family we decided to donate them to a local museum (where I live,the Channel Islands, we were the only UK soil to be occupied during WW2, lots of bunkers etc here). I still hold my port d'armes and go clay shooting or .22 every year or so. I'm not particulary pro-gun either, a gun is just a tool, it takes a person to make it a weapon.


Anyway, what do you guys, on both sides of the argument, think we can do to reduce crime itself, rather than blathering on about guns good/bad ?

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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That's a very good question.

A few thoughts that I've entertained from time to time:

1. Get the non-violent and "victimless" criminals out of the prisons. Put them on home arrest or something similar.

2. Make the punishment be actual *punishment*. There's lots of trash to pick up and roads to fix. Let's have them pay back some of the 25k+ yearly costs to incarcerate them by doing labor that helps the community.

3. Recidivism: If they get arrested for another violent crime, automatic life imprisonment without parole - they've amply proven that they cannot be a productive member of society and are a danger to their fellow citizens.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I agree with 1 and 2. Why do we put people who do drugs in prison. As long as you fuck your self up and no one else go for it, have fun. Legalise all drugs now, take the 'cool' factor out of it and I reckon a lot of kids out there wouldn't go do them. You also remove the profit motive, who would buy on the street corner some shite cooked up in someone house when they can go to the chemist and buy some proper quality shit, knowing what strenth it is so they don't OD.

This is what happened in the UK before the '70s. Heroin addicts (they were not smackheads) used to queue up outside Boots in the AM, then go shootup as required throughout the day. They were functioning addicts and led semi productive lives without the need to go on the rob as their Drs gave them what they needed. It is a shame they were not helped kick it but at least they were not out nicking peoples shit.

For crimes against the person a few days in pokey then weeks (maybe months) of community service doing what you do best, for the community. If you aint got no skills, then you get taught one, then you work for the community paying off your debt and the debt for the skills you've learnt. Then you have a skill, have paid off your debt, and have something to go on with. If you cant learn a skill then pick up rubbish for a while.


3 I have a problem with. Repeat persistent offenders should be looked at why they are doing it. If they are mad (which lots of them are, at lot of the time drug related, see above) off to hospital till they find a way to help, if they cant enjoy the slippers. If they are truly bad then lock the fuckers up, see you laters. But at what point do you say, right, you've done this 3 times off to prison. What if some one commits a crime when they are 18, then 28, then 58? should they goto jail?

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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My thoughts above on recidivism are in regards to violent crime - non-violent recidivism is a lot more of a gray area. There has to be a point where you say "Ok, this person just isn't learning a lesson from the punishment given so far".
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I do have one class of criminals I'd like to see do more time. White collar criminals who defraud and fuck the pensions of millions. Now they may not have hit anyone but I guess if you asked anyone who lost serious wad with Enron they would have rather been kicked in the nuts than what happened.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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Yes, there are some cunts out there that will do crime whatever but there are socio-economic reasons why people commit crimes. You don't see many middle class people jacking people on the street.



I believe that the socio-economic reasons is just a secondary reason for crimes. Just one of the many reasons that push one over the edge. Primarily, I think it's psychological reasons that create the criminal.
I agree with 1 and 2 as you do. But I have to side with mnealx with number three for the reason that there is just too many criminals to criminal psychologists to support the program.
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That is a fair point. Do you think we should look at why they are not learning their lessons? Even if we cant fix them we can learn lessons from why and apply them to the next that comes along. Because one will[:/]


"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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1. Get the non-violent and "victimless" criminals out of the prisons. Put them on home arrest or something similar.



Can you give some examples of victimless crimes?

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2. Make the punishment be actual *punishment*. There's lots of trash to pick up and roads to fix. Let's have them pay back some of the 25k+ yearly costs to incarcerate them by doing labor that helps the community.



Agreed

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3. Recidivism: If they get arrested for another violent crime, automatic life imprisonment without parole - they've amply proven that they cannot be a productive member of society and are a danger to their fellow citizens.



Agreed
My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

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If so why do areas of poverty experience more crime. People who have no money and feel dissociated from society tend to lack respect for that society and don't feel bound by the norms. Therefore they feel it is OK to jack the guy with the nice coat, fat wallet and iPhone. What the fuck has the 'rich' guy done to help? Don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses just looking to see what we all can do to make everyones lives better.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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Socio-economic reasons....sometimes i blame the media hype.
Take ipods for example media makes them a must have and the have nots want to have,hence a spate of people getting mugged simply because of tail tail white headphones.

I know the above is not the only reason for crime,drug dependancy,greed etc etc play a big part not to mention those that think taking is better than working for with regards to theft.

But what about crimes that can't be attributed to socio-economic reasons,rape murder etc
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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Victim less crimes. Let me think,

Speeding on an open road

Smoking homegrown pot

Skateboarding in public areas without grinding on every shit you see

Being drunk off your ass and not getting in a fight or pissing/puking every where.

So that is 4 off the top off my head. Guess which one I've been arrested for twice as an adult.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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But what about crimes that can't be attributed to socio-economic reasons,rape murder etc



then mad/bad, see my response above. Where I live we are very lucky, there are about 100k people, we get 1 murder roughly every 7 years, 1 or so reported rapes a year.

Some murders can also be attributed to socio-economics, if you don't feel that you are valued by society then you don't value society. Therefore you may feel no qualms about sticking a knife (in the UK just for JR) or capping someone.

Put it this way, if people tell you are shit repeatedly, at some point you start acting like shit. I'm not trying to make excuses but this seems to be the way it is.:S

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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If so why do areas of poverty experience more crime. People who have no money and feel dissociated from society tend to lack respect for that society and don't feel bound by the norms. Therefore they feel it is OK to jack the guy with the nice coat, fat wallet and iPhone. What the fuck has the 'rich' guy done to help? Don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses just looking to see what we all can do to make everyones lives better.



Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. There are more crimes coming out of the low rent areas. That's for sure. I just believe that the socio-economic aspect is more fuel for the fire rather than the whole story. Put the would-be criminal in a better position, he or she may have less desire to commit the crime.
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I just believe that the socio-economic aspect is more fuel for the fire rather than the whole story. Put the would-be criminal in a better position, he or she may have less desire to commit the crime.



While I don't disagree, I think todays "entitlement syndrome" seems to play into it, as well.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I just believe that the socio-economic aspect is more fuel for the fire rather than the whole story. Put the would-be criminal in a better position, he or she may have less desire to commit the crime.



While I don't disagree, I think todays "entitlement syndrome" seems to play into it, as well.



Very valid. People seem to value objects over people and that is just plain wrong. I cleansed myself recently, got rid of everything I did not need. I ended up with my PCs which I need for work (but gave away 2), 1/4 my clothes, my books (I've kept every book since I was 8, you don't throw knowledge away), my skydiving stuff, my push bike and photos/letters. It felt so good, I didn't feel tied down anymore by my collection of crap that we all acumalate.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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I can see where you're coming from with that and in general I don't disagree, but I meant more the mindset that the world "owes them something"...sorry for the misunderstanding.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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I just believe that the socio-economic aspect is more fuel for the fire rather than the whole story. Put the would-be criminal in a better position, he or she may have less desire to commit the crime.



While I don't disagree, I think todays "entitlement syndrome" seems to play into it, as well.



Oh yes. Nothing brings discontent like seeing someone more successful and being jealous about it, or being ignorant of the tools for success to get there. This syndrome is a hard nut to crack. Too bad there's not enough mentors out there to show the errors of their thinking.
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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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I can see where you're coming from with that and in general I don't disagree, but I meant more the mindset that the world "owes them something"...sorry for the misunderstanding.



Ok, sorry for going the wrong way. Why do you think the entitlement thing has arisen? Is it because less advantaged people have been patronised and given handouts rather than hand ups? I kind of lean that way.

"This isn't an iron lung, people. You can actually disconnect and not die." -Dave

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That's quite a lot of it, I think. That and people being told that it's not their fault that they failed at something - think of schools promoting self-esteem over classwork.

When they're told all through their formative years that it's not their fault they failed and they're promoted ANYWAY...it creates the attitude that the world is supposed to provide for them... couple that with handouts instead of a "hand UP", and....
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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s an example of what I consider to be a victimless crime... someone who gets busted for pot. They're not causing direct harm to anyone else.



Now there is a good example and I will back it up with an experience.

A friend of mine was busted for growing a dozen herb plants, he was put in jail for 9 months and was a middle classed pretty well good boy that smoked a bit of weed.

In the 9 months in Jail he learned how to break into a house and a car, how to make met amphetamines, had the shit kicked out of him all his stuff stolen. meanwhile passing many joints around that had been smuggled into the (minimum security) prison.

What lesson was learned from attending his term in Jail?

Going back to the original post, I am in the opinion that the free availability of firearms and in particular hand guns increases the likelihood of gun crimes, illegal prostitution makes rape more likely, illegal drugs makes Gangs shit loads of cash and funds more violent crimes.

As was mentioned before, illegal drugs also push up the price of the said drugs and creates violent crimes to satisfy the drug addicts needs.
another example;

Someone I knew wanted to score an ounce of weed a few years ago and the cops had just spent a fortune busting and raiding all the cannabis supplies. New Zealand was dry so to speak.

He drove the length of the country to source all his contacts but as the cops had done such a good job getting all the cannabis suppliers he was unable to get an ounce of weed but he was offered by almost everyone some met amphetamines!!!!!! Now for some reason GEE I DON'T KNOW WHY? met amphetamines are a huge problem in New Zealand now.

Luckily he was not into that shit and just wanted some weed. he got his ounce in the end but had to pay as much as an ounce of gold for some hydroponic cannabis $400 an ounce!!!.

so therefore drug control actually created another drug (met amphetamine) problem and is also a form of alchemy!

This was all about 6 years ago!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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We need more police officers on the streets, simple as that. More fit, able police officers to allow a pro active as opposed to just reactive police response. As well as responding to 999 calls you need officers that check cars, trawl the industrial estates at nights, look out for those legs dangling through a window (every coppers wet dream) and stop/search known criminals.

Physically unfit or lazy police officers who don't like to go and look for offences should be shoved behind a desk until they reach the required standard, then if they continue to fail kicked out the force (in my opinion)

A good intelligence led pro active police force would solve so many issues.

I don't care for peoples excuses or reasons why they commit crime, however if rehabilitation of some sort will help them than it should be considered in the first instance. For example drug addict burgles somewhere to get money to fund habbit, they should go to rehab the first time. If caught again or skip rehab... straight to prison, do not pass go.

More prisons and more police officers..... if we had the money

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Anyway, what do you guys, on both sides of the argument, think we can do to reduce crime itself, rather than blathering on about guns good/bad ?



Encourage and equip would-be victims to fight back and kill those who would victimize them.

Criminality would decrease by attrition.

It's time to stop pussyfooting around criminals and hoping that once they've attacked a dozen or so people and finally get arrested, that the police, courts and prisons can turn them into wonderful, good people.

No, we need to simply eliminate them. The best time to do that is in flagrante delicto, when an innocent is about to have a crime perpetrated against him. There is a perfect moral justification for exterminating the evildoer at that moment in time -- far less ambiguous than an execution that might occur ten, twenty years later after a load of appeals have been exhausted.

I think that the population needs to be tougher and more prepared, and encouraged in an official way to do what they need to do when confronted by a criminal.
Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

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I just believe that the socio-economic aspect is more fuel for the fire rather than the whole story. Put the would-be criminal in a better position, he or she may have less desire to commit the crime.



No no no no no.

Look, having a crappy life situation or not being able to make much money at a job is NOT a justification to go robbing people or stealing what's not yours.

So I don't want to hear, "Oh, the only reason I robbed and stole was because my economic status was in the gutter." SO? DEAL with it. Make it better. But don't you dare act as though simply because you don't have luxuries and leisure that you're ENTITLED to TAKE it without EARNING it.

So this bullshit about how we need to "put the would-be criminal in a better position" is really just succumbing to his extortion scheme: "GIVE me success, or I'll make myself into a criminal problem for you to deal with." No no no no no. You're not going to get me to dig into my OWN pocket to give you what I EARNED just because if I don't you'll go and be a criminal. Time to grow up and realize you're not entitled to success, you have to work for it.

What happens if we "put the would-be criminal in a better position" and he still is greedy and still wants more? This is like negotiating with terrorists or paying kidnapers ransom. Where does it end? Once you open the door to paying, you'll be bled dry, 'cause they'll know they can continually threaten you and you'll keep forking over.
Spirits fly on dangerous missions
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We need more police officers on the streets, simple as that. More fit, able police officers to allow a pro active as opposed to just reactive police response.



Sorry, I find that offering ridiculous.

Just what do you want, a police officer issued to every citizen? Because anything short of that would be doomed to failure.

You could put a police officer on the streetcorner three houses away from someone's house. Does that somehow guarantee that during an argument, the husband can't beat the wife to death before he gets there?

Just how saturated with police officers do you envision society being at a point where you consider society "safe"? One every block? One every square mile? (Even that would be monstrous increase)

The fact is that even if a police officer were in the same ROOM with a violent criminal and his victim, that doesn't mean the criminal couldn't fatally stabe the victim before the cop intervened.

The answer is more about empowering would-be victims to be alert, aware of their surroundings, and physically equipped to fight their attackers (guns, is what I mean) and legislatively protected from being sued or prosecuted for justifiable self defense.
Spirits fly on dangerous missions
Imaginations on fire

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