Airport delays

[Rookie120 0]

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JOE SHARKEY,
The New York Times
Published: June 26, 2007

For nearly four hours last Thursday night, Flight 5637, a 50-seat regional jet, was stuck on the ground by bad weather at Kennedy International Airport. The air-conditioning wasn’t working, and no one seemed to have a clue about when the plane would take off.

I wish I could say I was writing about this because the situation was unusual. Or that it was as bad as air travel can get. But I can’t.

What was unusual was that one passenger on the flight, David Ollila, runs a company that makes video cameras the size of a roll of quarters for mountain bikers, skiers and other amateur athletes to attach to their helmets and capture their thrills. And Mr. Ollila had one of those little cameras with him.

He marched up to the plane’s front, stood a few feet from the open cockpit door and interviewed the captain, demanding to know why something wasn’t being done to get the passengers off the plane.

He got a few replies on camera. Then the police arrived. The passengers all filed off. The flight was canceled. Mr. Ollila said he was questioned inside the airport by the Port Authority police and a Transportation Security Administration officer. After a background check, “they determined I was not a threat,” he said.

He was released without charge.

Flight 5637, New York to Detroit, was operated by Comair, a subsidiary of Delta Air Lines. Kate Marx, a spokeswoman for Comair, confirms that the police responded twice to the plane — once to “evaluate” a sick teenager and a few hours later to deal with a report of a possible disruptive passenger (that would be Mr. Ollila).

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey says no official report was filed. Christopher White, a spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration, confirmed that agency officials did respond to a report from the captain, questioned Mr. Ollila, and determined that he neither posed a threat nor violated security rules.

Mr. Ollila said he decided to make his move at around 9.30 p.m, when the captain announced that the crew had “timed out." — that is, had approached the safety limit on its work hours — and that a new crew was being sought. Figuring that could add hours to the ordeal, he sprang into action as a citizen journalist.

"People were crying; people were throwing up,” he said. “The air-conditioning was not working. It was just becoming a mess.”

Mr. Ollila, 37, is the founder of V.I.O. Inc., a Michigan company that makes the tiny cameras, which it calls “wearable video technology.”

The police and the T.S.A. official who questioned him were “terrific," he said. Afterward, “they all wanted me to give them a demonstration of the camera," said Mr. Ollila, who knows a marketing opportunity when he sees one. (To see it, go to www.vio-pov.com. The company’s main Web site is www.viosport.com.)

Now, I could (and God help me, might) spend the rest of this summer writing about delays, cancellations and airplanes packed with people stranded without being able to get off because of bad weather, bad scheduling, bad airline management, the inability of the Federal Aviation Administration to handle growing air traffic — or a combination of the above. Each week, there are reports of long delays and stranded flights.

Flight 5637 boarded at 6 p.m., more than an hour late. Shortly after boarding, Mr. Ollila said, “the pilot announced that the air-conditioning system was broken, and it would be uncomfortable, but that we should be under way shortly."

By 9.30 p.m., some passengers were standing in the narrow aisle and fanning themselves and children with magazines. Mr. Ollila approached the cockpit.

“I figured if I started recording and asking the pilots what was going on and why they couldn’t make a decision to get people off the plane that the police would come and take us off — and that is exactly what happened,”he said.


I’ve seen Mr. Ollila’s recording. At first the captain asks if Mr. Ollila is “recording," to which Mr. Ollila replies that he is. Still, the captain replied to Mr. Ollila’s persistent questions for about five minutes. In his responses, the captain basically said he had no authority to release the passengers without approval from Comair’s headquarters. “He said, ‘If you keep this up I’m going to have to call the police.’ I said, ‘That’s an excellent idea,’ " Mr. Ollila said.

Ms. Marx, the Comair spokeswoman, confirmed the details of the incident, but she said the captain’s options were limited. On the night in question, she said, Kennedy was experiencing departure delays averaging three hours, and removing passengers from a plane means losing a slot in the takeoff line.

Since he stayed out of the cockpit, Mr. Ollila evidently was not in violation of security rules.

Airline chaos is the travel story of this year. I’ve written in the past about the efforts of a real estate agent from the San Francisco area, Kate Hanni, who got so motivated after being stranded for eight hours on a plane with overflowing toilets that she now works full-time lobbying for federal legislation to address passengers’ rights.

Her group has a Web site, www.strandedpassengers.blogspot.com. She has also set up a toll-free hotline — (877) 359-3776 — for passengers to phone in their complaints

It was JFK in the evening after a severe storm blew through. Of course there are going to be delays! You cannot control the weather. On one hand I fell sorry for these people but on the other hand I dont. Happy flying!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Unfortunately the instant gratification "me-me" whuffo world can not grasp this concept.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Rookie120 0]

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It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I was at Newark last thrusday when the weather that also hit JFK hit. It was really bad. They had complete ground stops. Severe windshear, lightning, hail. The flying public dont care. They just want to go! Never mind safety.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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They just want to go! Never mind safety.

Until there is an incident and then they want blood. I've been stuck in an airplane sitting on the ground on several occasions and it sucks ass. But what's a few hours out of your life?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[okalb 104]

I fly almost every week and have been for several years. Things have gotten so bad that I would probably say that 1 out of 10 flight I take is on time. BTW when I refer to on time, I am not talking about exactly on time. I would be happy if they were within one hour of the scheduled time. This is a problem that I have seen get worse and worse over the last few years. So far 2007 has been the worst yet.

I know that you can't control the weather, but even when the weather is clear things are delayed. I think there are just too many flight. Airports like Newark have so many flight scheduled that one problem in the chain causes the entire day to be a disaster. I got on a flight there recently and the captain came on and said that we were 56 in line for takeoff. I had another where he said that he wasn't sure what number we were but he couldn't see the front of the line. It was at least a mile away he said.

If I check the historical stats for most of the flights I take, they show around 30 to 40% on time rates. I'm sorry, but it can't all be weather. Those numbers are completely unacceptable.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[akarunway 1]

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It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground.

I was at Newark last thrusday when the weather that also hit JFK hit. It was really bad. They had complete ground stops. Severe windshear, lightning, hail. The flying public dont care. They just want to go! Never mind safety.

Sounds to me like guys just wanted off the airplane.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[BillyVance 35]

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They just want to go! Never mind safety.

Until there is an incident and then they want blood. I've been stuck in an airplane sitting on the ground on several occasions and it sucks ass. But what's a few hours out of your life?

If the weather is going to be that bad for that long, bring the goddamn plane back to the gate so the passengers can get off! They should not have sent the plane out there with broken air conditioning. In my opinion, they really dropped the ball here.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Rookie120 0]

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Sounds to me like guys just wanted off the airplane.

I wasnt flying, I work at the airport.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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If the weather is going to be that bad for that long, bring the goddamn plane back to the gate

From the looks of it on the video they never left the gate. But it isnt always that easy. If they are in line for takeoff, they might not have a gate open to go to. I dont know what all happened but it is not as cut and dry as "Take them to a gate".

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[HeadCone 0]

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It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Unfortunately the instant gratification "me-me" whuffo world can not grasp this concept.

It's even better to be back in the airport terminal than to be stranded on a plane for 8 hours.

"You gotta realize the frustration — you can look out the window and you can see, there's the gate, and if you let us off the plane, we can walk there," said Farrell, 48, of Brooklyn.

I think these people would have been ok with just getting off the plane rather than forcing the flight.

--Head

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Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety!

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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If the weather is going to be that bad for that long, bring the goddamn plane back to the gate so the passengers can get off! They should not have sent the plane out there with broken air conditioning. In my opinion, they really dropped the ball here.

I don't make the rules, don't shit down my neck. But remember that sometimes that is not possible since another airplane that just landed may be occupying the ramp space.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,119]

>If the weather is going to be that bad for that long, bring the goddamn
>plane back to the gate so the passengers can get off!

Right. And just as they unload they get a clearance with a void time of 30 minutes. They load up - and miss the window. Then the crew times out.

>They should not have sent the plane out there with broken air conditioning.

Again, they may have wanted (heck, the PASSENGERS may have wanted) to get out there and go instead of pulling the plane out of service for a 2 hour delay. In retrospect it didn't work out, but them's the chances you take.

[billvon 3,119]

> I think there are just too many flight.

Well, that's the basic problem. Too many people flying.

>Those numbers are completely unacceptable.

So take the train. In a mostly-capitalist society, your 'rights' involve the right to not use airlines.

[HeadCone 0]

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> I think there are just too many flight.

Well, that's the basic problem. Too many people flying.

>Those numbers are completely unacceptable.

So take the train. In a mostly-capitalist society, your 'rights' involve the right to not use airlines.

I think passengers should have the right to be left off the plane after a certain amount of time passes. Once they start boarding a timer starts. After, oh 4 hours just to throw a number out there, if the plane hasn't taken off yet, then they let you off.

--Head

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Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety!

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[kallend 2,150]

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>If the weather is going to be that bad for that long, bring the goddamn
>plane back to the gate so the passengers can get off!

Right. And just as they unload they get a clearance with a void time of 30 minutes. They load up - and miss the window. Then the crew times out.

Yep, those damn ungrateful CUSTOMERS. Just read about these whiners:

June 21, 2007, 8:55PM
Continental apologizes for sewage overflow


By DAVID KOENIG
Associated Press

DALLAS — Continental Airlines Inc. is apologizing to its customers for "poor conditions" aboard a trans-Atlantic flight where one passenger described sewage spilling down the aisle from a lavatory.

"I've never felt so offended in all my life," passenger Collin Brock of Washington state told Seattle's KING-TV. "I felt like I had been physically abused and neglected. I was forced to sit next to human excrement for seven hours."

Continental spokesman Dave Messing today confirmed that there had been a problem with the plane's lavatory during the flight.

Flight 71, with 168 passengers on board, had taken off June 13 from Amsterdam bound for Newark, N.J., but made an overnight stop in Shannon, Ireland, to fix the lavatory problem, Messing said.

Messing didn't say who worked on the plane, but everything appeared to have been fixed before it took off again for Newark the next day, renamed Flight 1970. However, "the problem developed again," he said.

After the plane landed in Newark, airline employees determined someone blocked a waste line by flushing latex gloves down the toilet — despite signs that warn people not to discard foreign objects into the system, Messing said.

"We deeply regret the serious inconvenience to our customers and are apologizing to them and compensating them for the poor conditions on the flight as well as the diversion and delay," he wrote in a statement from the Houston-based carrier.

Continental is compensating passengers with travel vouchers, Messing said. He declined to say how much the vouchers were worth.

Brock told KING-TV he was offered a $500 voucher. He said he wasn't sure he would ever use it.

The incident came to light as Continental was celebrating being ranked first among traditional network airlines in customer satisfaction by market-research firm J.D. Power and Associates. Chairman and Chief Executive Lawrence W. Kellner had said Continental offered "the best product in the industry."

It followed other examples of letdowns in the airline industry, including JetBlue Airways Corp.'s stranding of passengers for up to 10 hours on a snowy New York runway in February.

Last week's plumbing problems aboard the Continental flight appeared unlikely to rival JetBlue's meltdown, which resulted in hundreds of flight cancelations that affected at least 100,000 passengers.

Airline experts said lavatory pipes are small in diameter and prone to problems. High pressure is used to push waste through, but lines can clog easily, causing sewage to back up.

"[shi]It happens," said Robert Mann, an airline consultant in Port Washington, N.J.

Mann worked for now-defunct Tower Air in the 1990s when it had problems with overflowing toilets in the second deck of Boeing 747s. As he described it, "blue water" would leak through ceiling panels of the lower deck and rain on passengers below.

"You do your best to remedy the problem," he said. "When it doesn't work, you write a lengthy letter to customers explaining exactly what happened. And you write a short letter to the ground company that serviced the aircraft, and that one says, 'You're fired.'"

James Lukaszewski, a public relations executive who teaches classes in crisis communications for peers, said the fouled flight already had become water cooler talk today.

When an embarrassing incident happens, Lukaszewski said, companies need to be open with victims and the media and commit to making sure it doesn't happen again. He said Continental was right to offer vouchers for free travel.

"In this case, one of the few things they can do is let people fly again," he said, "on a plane with a potty that works."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,119]

>I think passengers should have the right to be left off the plane after
>a certain amount of time passes.

Would you be willing to tolerate more delays on all flights to make that happen? (i.e. the plane pulls in to gate 15 to unload; the other flight that was going to load at that gate is now 30 minutes later than it was.) Perhaps a carrier will institute such a policy, then you could decide to fly on only that carrier, solving the problem.

[HeadCone 0]

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>I think passengers should have the right to be left off the plane after
>a certain amount of time passes.

Would you be willing to tolerate more delays on all flights to make that happen? (i.e. the plane pulls in to gate 15 to unload; the other flight that was going to load at that gate is now 30 minutes later than it was.) Perhaps a carrier will institute such a policy, then you could decide to fly on only that carrier, solving the problem.

Maybe they could shuttle them off the plane instead of taking up a gate. Or maybe airlines could stop trying to force flights that they know are going to be sitting on the tarmac for hours. What's unacceptable to the point of being outright bullshit is allowing airlines to hold people for as long as they like just because you never know when the weather will break.

--Head

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[kallend 2,150]

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>I think passengers should have the right to be left off the plane after
>a certain amount of time passes.

Would you be willing to tolerate more delays on all flights to make that happen? (i.e. the plane pulls in to gate 15 to unload; the other flight that was going to load at that gate is now 30 minutes later than it was.) Perhaps a carrier will institute such a policy, then you could decide to fly on only that carrier, solving the problem.

Well, Bill, the SYSTEM has more than one part. I'm sure a halfway competent systems engineer could figure out a protocol for FAA/ATC/NWS/Airlines that did not result in passengers being incarcerated for hours within sight of a gate, nor lose a place in "the line".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Unfortunately the instant gratification "me-me" whuffo world can not grasp this concept.

If the crew's timed out with no ETA for the replacement or the weather is bad with no ETA for clearing, it's better to be inside an airport restaurant eating real food and drinking (hopefully real) beer or back at a hotel where you can be comfortable than stuck in a tin can with no legroom, no food, lousy drinks, and crying babies.

[billvon 3,119]

>Maybe they could shuttle them off the plane instead of taking up a
>gate.

An excellent idea! Find an airline that will do that, and give your business only to them.

>Or maybe airlines could stop trying to force flights that they know are
>going to be sitting on the tarmac for hours.

If airlines did that, people would post on the net saying things like "it's complete BULLSHIT that they cancelled that flight just because we would have had to wait a little and burn a little of the fuel we already paid for."

>What's unacceptable to the point of being outright bullshit is allowing
>airlines to hold people for as long as they like just because you never
>know when the weather will break.

I don't think it's bullshit at all. It's happened to me, and it's gotten me to my destination faster than it would otherwise. Heck, it saved my life once.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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>I think passengers should have the right to be left off the plane after
>a certain amount of time passes.

Would you be willing to tolerate more delays on all flights to make that happen? (i.e. the plane pulls in to gate 15 to unload; the other flight that was going to load at that gate is now 30 minutes later than it was.)

Sure. None of the 10 flights my wife or I have taken in the last year were on-time and we're not going to notice the difference when another reason gets added for the delays.

OTOH, she did get stuck inside a plane which couldn't take off for hours and would have been a lot happier back at the terminal.

[kelpdiver 2]

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It was JFK in the evening after a severe storm blew through. Of course there are going to be delays! You cannot control the weather. On one hand I fell sorry for these people but on the other hand I dont. Happy flying!

I think it's a no brainer to side with the passengers here. A 50 person commuter flight was sitting on the ground 4.5 hours after planned departure. Figure they showed an hour ahead of time - they could have driven to their destination. And since the crew hit their time limits, they were going to have to go in for a replacement crew anyway.

This notion of having to go out and sit 100 planes in line on the tarmac is a systemic failure that needs to be addressed. Airplanes are not suitable waiting lobbies. The terminals serve that role. I don't even think an hour waiting in the plane is acceptable. It's just not that hard to predict the wait time and use a JIT approach to sending planes out.

Simple solutions seem best - if the plane has been idling for 2 hours and isn't going to take off in 30, it should deboard. People will miss some flights. But there will be real incentive to fix the problem as the airliners lose money.

Oh, and immunity to passengers that commit any chargeable offenses after 4 hours in the plane. By then I wouldn't be interviewing the pilot, I'd be opening the door on the wing.

[billvon 3,119]

>I don't even think an hour waiting in the plane is acceptable.

If the alternative is spending another day in that city - I'd rather wait the hour.

>It's just not that hard to predict the wait time and use a JIT approach to
>sending planes out.

If gates were free. Unfortunately they're not.

What's happening in many cases is that people like to complain. They complain about delays, and breakdowns, and the weather, and that the counter people aren't taking enough time with their problem/taking their problem seriously. They complain that their seats are too small, the bins are too small, the weight limits are too restrictive, the pilots are not accommodating enough. They say that X, Y and Z is completely unacceptable, and that they will get the counter person/flight attendant fired, and that they will never, ever fly this airline again.

Then the next time they have to fly they get the cheapest ticket available.

Airline executives know this. That's why flights are cheap, and that's why they are more likely to cut your ticket prices by 5% than to buy ten extra aircraft, rent two extra gates or hire 30 more counter people. Because they know that no matter how miserable people's experience is, they will always go for the cheapest ticket.

Once that changes, so will airline's approach to the problem. Ticket prices will go up, and that will:

a) allow them to hire more people/rent more gates/have more pilotss on standby/buy more aircraft

b) reduce the number of people who can afford to fly

Is that the "right" thing to do? Hard to say. But until that day comes, any company that DOES do that will go out of business - and that's a powerful incentive to not do it.

[HeadCone 0]

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>Maybe they could shuttle them off the plane instead of taking up a
>gate.

An excellent idea! Find an airline that will do that, and give your business only to them.

If there was one, they'd be worth looking into.

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>Or maybe airlines could stop trying to force flights that they know are
>going to be sitting on the tarmac for hours.

If airlines did that, people would post on the net saying things like "it's complete BULLSHIT that they cancelled that flight just because we would have had to wait a little and burn a little of the fuel we already paid for."

Assuming the flight would have to be cancelled because they couldn't shuttle people off and then back on later, that would no doubt happen.

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>What's unacceptable to the point of being outright bullshit is allowing
>airlines to hold people for as long as they like just because you never
>know when the weather will break.

I don't think it's bullshit at all. It's happened to me, and it's gotten me to my destination faster than it would otherwise. Heck, it saved my life once.

I'm glad your situation worked out for you. I think the current system is broken and can't believe there's no better way.

--Head

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[billvon 3,119]

>I think the current system is broken and can't believe there's no better way.

I think there are many better ways. The question is - how can airlines provide them without going out of business?

Take our case. Our company has its own "airline" (really just a fleet of a few aircraft - a Challenger, a Citation X, a Global Express.) The airplane waits for us. It takes off once we're on board. When it breaks down we take another one (although most people don't like the Citation; it's tiny.) Anyone can do that if they like, but most people/companies can't afford it. We still use airlines for 95% of our travel because it's just plain cheaper.

There are many different solutions, but most people don't want to pay for them.