sundevil777 102 #1 June 23, 2007 I think the abortion threads are giving a very misleading portrayal of people's true opinions because you can say you would allow it even though you truly do have limits on when. Also, many will say they are against abortion when they would in fact allow it but only if it happens very early. So, I didn't break it down by every month, but I think the choices I presented are reasonable. I have not included any distinction for rape, incest, etc. I personally think these shouldn't matter because I think the value of the unborn isn't related to the circumstances of its conception (let's leave that for another thread, OK). I also haven't made a distinction for the mother's life being in jeopardy because when that truly is the case, I think there is no argument against it. I think there will be very few that will select the two extreme choices. I think this shows that most people are actually a lot more in agreement than it seems when we focus on the allow/disallow extreme. I voted for not after the 3rd month.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #2 June 24, 2007 I have not included any distinction for rape, incest, etc. I personally think these shouldn't matter because I think the value of the unborn isn't related to the circumstances of its conception I agree, and I voted never. Edit to add there is ONE circumstance in which an abortion may be the right choice, that is when the birth will almost certainly result in the death of both mother and child. Then and only then do I think abortion MAY be an option. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #3 June 24, 2007 I voted never, simply because you've not allowed the extenuating circumstances where I'd give it a nod and a wink. Not being bothered with the inconvinience or for the sake of vanity just doesn't hold water in my little world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #4 June 24, 2007 I voted at any time before birth. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #5 June 24, 2007 Any time before the 16th year.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #6 June 24, 2007 QuoteI have not included any distinction for rape, incest, etc. I personally think these shouldn't matter because I think the value of the unborn isn't related to the circumstances of its conception I agree, and I voted never. Edit to add there is ONE circumstance in which an abortion may be the right choice, that is when the birth will almost certainly result in the death of both mother and child. Then and only then do I think abortion MAY be an option. So if you had a 15-year-old daughter, and she was impregnated by a rapist, you'd expect her to have the child??? Wow. Rape is one of the reasons I would never vote to make abortion illegal. A woman who has been raped has already been through enough. I can't believe that anyone would want to force her to carry the child of her assailant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #7 June 24, 2007 QuoteRape is one of the reasons I would never vote to make abortion illegal. A woman who has been raped has already been through enough. I can't believe that anyone would want to force her to carry the child of her assailant. I realize that crotalus01 would not allow it at any time, but are you saying that the choice should be available at any time during the pregnancy? If she carries it past a certain point, it should not surprise you that many/most would choose to not allow abortion. But when is that point at which the value of the unborn should matter? That is the point of this thread.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #8 June 24, 2007 In the UK a termination must be carried out within 24 weeks. Right or wrong who knows but it seems like more than enough time in which to allow a termination to take place..CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #9 June 24, 2007 Quotebut are you saying that the choice should be available at any time during the pregnancy? No. In the case of rape, I see no reason why she would need to have an abortion late in the pregnancy (assuming she had made the decision to not keep the child). QuoteBut when is that point at which the value of the unborn should matter? It should matter at any time. But I don't think it's possible to make any black and white rules about abortion being "ok" or "not ok" at any certain point in the pregnancy. However, I think that if abortion is going to be done, it would be best to do it as early as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #10 June 24, 2007 I have a lot of thoughts about this issue, and to me there's not a clear right or wrong. I think that when the fetus is capable of suffering it's too late to electively abort it. I don't know when that is, but probably around 20 weeks or so. BTW, today I held a living 16-week fetus in the palm of my hand. Wow. It lived a few minutes, but it didn't seem to be distressed in any way. A 16-week fetus looks pretty normal though. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyflyer 0 #11 June 24, 2007 imagine that you live in an ancient small island society and one day you discovered that one of your co-islanders was a homicidal maniac. the jeffrey dahmar of that time. you lack the ability to properly imprison this person so the only real alternative is to execute him. so, immoral or not, the islanders execute him out of necessity for the island community as a whole. i believe that overpopulation is the greatest underlying problem of modern civilization. it is a serious threat to civilization. so i believe the same argument is true here. abortion should be allowed at any time during the pregnancy. when the population is sustainable then you can talk about whether its moral or not, whether it should be 3 months or 6 months. in the end if we don't chose a way of being sustainable then nature will chose one for us. i am not saying that abortion is the solution but it is certainly one of the things that helps us control population levels."Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #12 June 24, 2007 Quote believe that overpopulation is the greatest underlying problem of modern civilization. it is a serious threat to civilization. so i believe the same argument is true here. abortion should be allowed at any time during the pregnancy. when the population is sustainable then you can talk about whether its moral or not, whether it should be 3 months or 6 months. in the end if we don't chose a way of being sustainable then nature will chose one for us. i am not saying that abortion is the solution but it is certainly one of the things that helps us control population levels. How about we perform vasectomies on all males until they have proven themselves to be responsible humans. Then they could be restored to produce children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #13 June 24, 2007 Quotei believe that overpopulation is the greatest underlying problem of modern civilization. it is a serious threat to civilization. so i believe the same argument is true here. abortion should be allowed at any time during the pregnancy. when the population is sustainable then you can talk about whether its moral or not, whether it should be 3 months or 6 months. Do you think that infanticide should be allowed too? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #14 June 24, 2007 That is a really, really, crappy analogy.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #15 June 24, 2007 QuoteThat is a really, really, crappy analogy. No it wasn't.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #16 June 24, 2007 QuoteQuoteThat is a really, really, crappy analogy. No it wasn't. Man: Is this the right room for an argument? Other Man: I've told you once. Man: No you haven't! Other Man: Yes I have. M: When? O: Just now. M: No you didn't! O: Yes I did! M: You didn't! O: I did! M: You didn't! O: I'm telling you, I did! M: You didn't! O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour? M: Ah! Just the five minutes. O: Just the five minutes. Thank you. ....Anyway, I did. M: You most certainly did not! O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! ___ M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh no you didn't! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: No you DIDN'T! O: Oh yes I did! M: Oh look, this isn't an argument! O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! M: It's just contradiction! O: No it isn't! M: It IS! O: It is NOT! M: You just contradicted me! O: No I didn't! M: You DID! O: No no no! M: You did just then! O: Nonsense! M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!! O: No it isn't! M: Yes it is! I came here for a good argument! O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an *argument*! M: An argument isn't just contradiction. O: Well! it CAN be! M: No it can't! An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition. O: No it isn't! M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction. O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position! M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't". O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! O: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! O: Yes it is! M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says. O: It is NOT! M: It is! O: Not at all! M: It is! O: Thank you, that's it. M: (What? O: That's it. Good morning. M: But I was just getting interested! O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up. M: That was never five minutes!! O: I'm afraid it was. M: No it wasn't..... O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more. M: WHAT?? O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes. M: But that was never five minutes just now! (p Oh Come on! ....Oh this is... This is ridiculous! O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY! M: Oh all right. There you are. O: Thank you. M: Well... O: Well WHAT? M: That was never five minutes just now. O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid! M: Well I just paid! O: No you didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I DID!!! O: YOU didn't! M: I don't want to argue about it! O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay! M: Ah HAH!! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! ...Gotcha! O: No you haven't! M: Yes I have! .... If you're arguing, I must have paid. O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #17 June 24, 2007 You're welcome ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #18 June 25, 2007 If there is a lot of people who are truly against abortion - let's introduce special anti-abortion tax, which only those who are against abortion gonna pay. People who think that abortion should be allowed should not pay this tax. This way the abortion could be banned, and the money collected will be used to support the pregnant women, who would otherwise get an abortion. And after the child is born, one of a pro-life supporters must adopt this child, and raise it; standard adoption terms apply (i.e. the woman does not know who adopted the child, etc). There are following benefits: 1. The life is saved, and there is no arguments about killing. 2. There is a reasonable compensation for pregnancy for those who doesn't want it, and therefore would get an abortion otherwise. 3. We will see how big the anti-abortion crowd really is. It is easy to make decisions for others if it costs you nothing, but the things change dramatically when your money is on the table. I heard it called "put your money where you mouth is", and would be really interested to see the poll results after that.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyflyer 0 #19 June 25, 2007 QuoteIf there is a lot of people who are truly against abortion - let's introduce special anti-abortion tax, which only those who are against abortion gonna pay. People who think that abortion should be allowed should not pay this tax. This way the abortion could be banned, and the money collected will be used to support the pregnant women, who would otherwise get an abortion. And after the child is born, one of a pro-life supporters must adopt this child, and raise it; standard adoption terms apply (i.e. the woman does not know who adopted the child, etc). There are following benefits: 1. The life is saved, and there is no arguments about killing. 2. There is a reasonable compensation for pregnancy for those who doesn't want it, and therefore would get an abortion otherwise. 3. We will see how big the anti-abortion crowd really is. It is easy to make decisions for others if it costs you nothing, but the things change dramatically when your money is on the table. I heard it called "put your money where you mouth is", and would be really interested to see the poll results after that. i second that idea."Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives." A. Sachs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #20 June 25, 2007 QuoteIf there is a lot of people who are truly against abortion - let's introduce special anti-abortion tax, which only those who are against abortion gonna pay. People who think that abortion should be allowed should not pay this tax. This way the abortion could be banned, and the money collected will be used to support the pregnant women, who would otherwise get an abortion. And after the child is born, one of a pro-life supporters must adopt this child, and raise it; standard adoption terms apply (i.e. the woman does not know who adopted the child, etc). There are following benefits: 1. The life is saved, and there is no arguments about killing. 2. There is a reasonable compensation for pregnancy for those who doesn't want it, and therefore would get an abortion otherwise. 3. We will see how big the anti-abortion crowd really is. It is easy to make decisions for others if it costs you nothing, but the things change dramatically when your money is on the table. I heard it called "put your money where you mouth is", and would be really interested to see the poll results after that. Is that really what it is all about for abortion rights supporters, money to support a pregnant mother and someone else to raise the child? I thought the objections were much deeper.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #21 June 25, 2007 Quote2. There is a reasonable compensation for pregnancy for those who doesn't want it, and therefore would get an abortion otherwise. That would be kind of like people claiming that they lost everything in Hurricane Katrina when they've never set foot in Louisiana. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #22 June 25, 2007 Quote Quote 2. There is a reasonable compensation for pregnancy for those who doesn't want it, and therefore would get an abortion otherwise. That would be kind of like people claiming that they lost everything in Hurricane Katrina when they've never set foot in Louisiana. Isn't it weird? Hurricane Katrina is the new Hitler and holocaust. My dad (a retired Army colonel) can't have a discussion with his "pinko, commie, liberal" daughter without bringing up the looters in New Orleans ("They weren't looting chainsaws and hammers!"). Edited: My old favorite: "'Not wearing a shirt' is the new 'wearing a shirt'". My new fave: "'Katrina' is the new 'Hitler'" Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #23 June 25, 2007 Quote Is that really what it is all about for abortion rights supporters, money to support a pregnant mother and someone else to raise the child? I would start with that. It's a good reality check - just to see how many people are going to support their opinion with something like $1000/month in taxes. Want to create a poll? :)* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #24 June 25, 2007 Quote That would be kind of like people claiming that they lost everything in Hurricane Katrina when they've never set foot in Louisiana. I don't think so - remember that the child gets adopted, so they basically carrying the baby for someone else. However in this case it's a job, and a tough one - so it must be paid as well.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #25 June 25, 2007 QuoteQuote Is that really what it is all about for abortion rights supporters, money to support a pregnant mother and someone else to raise the child? I would start with that. It's a good reality check - just to see how many people are going to support their opinion with something like $1000/month in taxes. Want to create a poll? :) No way would it be anywhere near that much. I really didn't think it all came down to money. I thought things were much deeper than that.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
