NCclimber 0 #101 June 20, 2007 Quote Quote why can't the man choose to not pay child support either before or after birth? news flash ... there is no shortage of dead beat dads out there who have made this decision not to support their child. Your point is irrelevant to the point being addressed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #102 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuotewhy can't the man choose to not pay child support either before or after birth? news flash ... there is no shortage of dead beat dads out there who have made this decision not to support their child. Yes, yes there are. But I am asking why they don't have the legal choice to not pay child support."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #103 June 20, 2007 >But I am asking why they don't have the legal choice to not pay child support. ?? They do. There are any number of ways to legally avoid child support, like adoption, being a surrogate father - heck, even a notarized agreement with the woman involved would work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #104 June 20, 2007 QuoteI didn't see that he was advocating arbitrary stumbling blocks. More that he was advocating easy access to birth control and education, so fewer abortions happen overall. Why would a pro-choicer want their to be fewer abortions happening overall? If abortion is legal, then it's legal. What difference does it make how many occur? --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #105 June 20, 2007 Quote>But I am asking why they don't have the legal choice to not pay child support. ?? They do. There are any number of ways to legally avoid child support, like adoption, being a surrogate father - heck, even a notarized agreement with the woman involved would work. Those ways to negotiate not paying child support, all conditional on the consent of the mother. If the mother says no, then that's it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #106 June 20, 2007 >Why would a pro-choicer want their to be fewer abortions happening overall? Do you want fewer skydiving injuries overall? After all, skydiving injuries are legal; it's perfectly legal to break your pelvis. Do you care how many occur? If you could stop your friend from breaking his pelvis, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #107 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuote"Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies Pro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? Only those who think that a pregnant woman should give birth even if it kills her are the ones that give total superiority to the fetus. I'll venture to guess that most people don't actually feel that way. Why should the fetus have any rights whatsoever? It's a basic human right just like those babies that actually do manage to get born have. --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #108 June 20, 2007 Quote>Why would a pro-choicer want their to be fewer abortions happening overall? Do you want fewer skydiving injuries overall? After all, skydiving injuries are legal; it's perfectly legal to break your pelvis. Do you care how many occur? If you could stop your friend from breaking his pelvis, would you? Ok, of coarse I'd like fewer skydiving injuries because I don't want to see people get hurt. Injuries are a bad thing. Are you suggesting that there's something bad about abortion? --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #109 June 20, 2007 >Are you suggesting that there's something bad about abortion? Yes, there is. It's a very bad thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #110 June 20, 2007 Quote>Why would a pro-choicer want their to be fewer abortions happening overall? Do you want fewer skydiving injuries overall? After all, skydiving injuries are legal; it's perfectly legal to break your pelvis. Do you care how many occur? If you could stop your friend from breaking his pelvis, would you? I think the point you make here is more profound than you realize! After all, the mail point in this thread has been going round personal responsibilities for ones actions"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #111 June 20, 2007 Quote>Are you suggesting that there's something bad about abortion? Yes, there is. It's a very bad thing. What's so bad about it? Of coarse there's the standard things involved in any medical procedure like costs, risks, pain/discomfort, inconvenience, etc. Just that, nothing else? I still don't have a handle on why someone who's pro-choice would make comments along the lines of minimizing the number of abortions. It's as if they're hinting at there being something wrong with it (morally wrong) but they won't/can't come right out and admit it. --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #112 June 20, 2007 Maybe he is morally against abortions but doesn't believe he should force his morals (at least in regards to abortion) on others."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #113 June 20, 2007 >It's as if they're hinting at there being something wrong with it >(morally wrong) but they won't/can't come right out and admit it. It IS morally wrong. It's killing a potential human being. That's not a good thing. There are very few cases where it's the least bad of several bad options. I am pro-choice because I believe that it is the woman involved - and not me - who should make that decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #114 June 20, 2007 QuoteWhy should the fetus have any rights whatsoever? It's a basic human right just like those babies that actually do manage to get born have. I'm still waiting for the pro-lifers to come out and say it. I have my theories (which I already hinted at in another post) as to why you are so against aborting the fetus. But to claim humans rights is the reason when the vast majority of pro-lifers support a president who wages war is just not selling your arguments to me. What about the rights to life of the people your president indirectly killed when he decided to invade another country? Come on pro-lifers just tell us the real reason why you are against abortion. We know it's not human rights. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #115 June 20, 2007 QuoteI'm still waiting for the pro-lifers to come out and say it. I have my theories (which I already hinted at in another post) as to why you are so against aborting the fetus. But to claim humans rights is the reason when the vast majority of pro-lifers support a president who wages war is just not selling you arguments to me. What about the human rights of the people your president killed when he decided to invade another country? Come on pro-lifers just tell us the real reason why you are against abortion. We know it's not human rights. You are making assumptions based on generalizations and stereotypes ... I have already responsed but will respond again. I BELIEVE THE RIGHT TO LIFE OF THE FETUS TRUMPS THE RIGHT FOR THE WOMAN TO CHOOSE AN ABORTION. I BELIEVE THIS BECAUSE THE WOMAN (AND MAN) HAVE CHOICES PRIOR TO CONCEPTION AND I BELIEVE THAT THE FETUS IS A DEVELOPING HUMAN AND DESERVES THE RIGHT TO LIFE. Why don't you answer any of the questions I have asked?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #116 June 20, 2007 Quote I'm still waiting for the pro-lifers to come out and say it. Say what? Quote I have my theories (which I already hinted at in another post) as to why you are so against aborting the fetus. No need to theorize; I just told you. Quote But to claim humans rights is the reason when the vast majority of pro-lifers support a president who wages war is just not selling your arguments to me. What about the rights to life of the people your president indirectly killed when he decided to invade another country?Come on pro-lifers just tell us the real reason why you are against abortion. We know it's not human rights. Um, yeah, this just took a bizarre turn. --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #117 June 20, 2007 QuoteMaybe he is morally against abortions but doesn't believe he should force his morals (at least in regards to abortion) on others. So no one should ever force their morals on others? --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #118 June 20, 2007 Fine Butters I respect your opinions on the matter and maybe in your case, you do feel so strongly about the right to life of the fetus. But with that in mind, what are you doing about the war in Iraq? What are you doing about the famine in Africa? What are you doing about the poverty in your own country? Do not all these other people also have the right to life? Still waiting for some other pro-lifer besides Butters to tell me exactly why you are so against abortion. I have my theories ... but to avoid the stereotypes I won't mention it right now. PS: I'm not doing shit about the war in Iraq, the faminine in Africa and while I do a small amount to battle poverty in my country, I am not the one who is claiming the right to life here. I am just battling for the right for people to choose their own destiny. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #119 June 20, 2007 QuoteIt IS morally wrong. It's killing a potential human being. That's not a good thing. There are very few cases where it's the least bad of several bad options. I am pro-choice because I believe that it is the woman involved - and not me - who should make that decision. Is it a matter of magnitude? Wrong, but not wrong enough to make illegal? --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #120 June 20, 2007 Quote Fine Butters I respect your opinions on the matter and maybe in your case, you do feel so strongly about the right to life of the fetus. Seems like he summarized the points I been trying to address. Quote But with that in mind, what are you doing about the war in Iraq? What are you doing about the famine in Africa? What are you doing about the poverty in your own country? Do not all these other people also have the right to life? Perhaps we could see about re-evaluating the laws effecting them, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #121 June 20, 2007 >Is it a matter of magnitude? Wrong, but not wrong enough to make illegal? Sort of. Also partly none of my business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #122 June 20, 2007 Quote Why would a pro-choicer want their to be fewer abortions happening overall? If abortion is legal, then it's legal. What difference does it make how many occur? --Head Just because something is legal doesn't make it the best or healthiest option. I think most of us agree that abortion is not usually a positive thing. It's a surgical procedure that is not without risk. Pro-choice just means that we're not going to decide for someone else. It doesn't mean that we want people to have abortions. It just means we want the alternative to be there if people feel they need it. I'm pro-choice, but I'd love to see a world with no abortion. That does not, however, mean I want a world with no choice. I want to see people educated about birth control so the issue of abortion won't even come up. I want to prevent abortions by preventing unplanned pregnancies to begin with. I don't want to see people go through the anguish of deciding whether or not to terminate a pregnancy. The fewer people who need to consider abortion, the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #123 June 20, 2007 Quote>Is it a matter of magnitude? Wrong, but not wrong enough to make illegal? Sort of. Also partly none of my business. How about domestic abuse? None of your business? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #124 June 20, 2007 >How about domestic abuse? None of your business? If it's a woman spanking a five year old for running into a street - none of my business. If it's a man slapping his wife around (or vice versa) then it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeadCone 0 #125 June 20, 2007 Quote>Is it a matter of magnitude? Wrong, but not wrong enough to make illegal? Sort of. Also partly none of my business. Ok, but that doesn't satisfy my curiosity. If it's sort of wrong and none of your business what does it really matter how much of it occurs? --Head-- Turn off the internet! Join Citizens United Negating Technology For Life And People's Safety! http://www.citizensunitednegatingtechnology.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
