Nightingale 0 #76 June 20, 2007 Quote You're letting a woman decide her own fate, but you did say that you're "not advocating easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control". Why can't a woman have easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control? If abortion is legal, why put in arbitrary stumbling blocks to it? --Head I didn't see that he was advocating arbitrary stumbling blocks. More that he was advocating easy access to birth control and education, so fewer abortions happen overall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #77 June 20, 2007 QuoteWell, since abortion occurs during the pregnancy, I think the primary issue is during the pregnancy. After delivery, there are options. Adoption, safe-surrender, raise the kid, etc.... Before delivery, there are two: carry the fetus, or don't. Don't forget that there are options before pregnancy."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #78 June 20, 2007 QuoteI thought we were talking about motivating factors affecting the decision to abort or not. No we are talking about who has the right to make choices regarding the direction someone wishes to make in their life. You Pro-lifers are all too willing to take these choices away from the woman. Why? It appears to be related to your religious beliefs. But maybe I am wrong. Why are you trying to control the destiny of someone else's life? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #79 June 20, 2007 I'm not forgetting pre-pregnancy options, but I am aware that those options are not 100%, and accidents do happen. Pills are forgotten, shot window dates can be fuzzy, patches fall off, condoms break, abstinence pledges combine with hormones or alcohol, etc... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #80 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteI thought we were talking about motivating factors affecting the decision to abort or not. No we are talking about who has the right to make choices regarding the direction someone wishes to make in their life. Really? It sounds like she was talking about motivating factors affecting the decision to abort or not. ***The fetus is inside her body, changing it, taking nutrients from it, and altering the way it functions. If we can come up with a way to remove the fetus and gestate it elsewhere without subjecting the mother to a level of risk higher than current, I'm all for outlawing abortion and taking the fetus out and giving the resulting child to someone who wants it, provided there is a waiting list of people willing to raise the kid. The thing is, as long as we don't have a way to remove the fetus from the woman without killing the fetus, since it's her body that's hosting the fetus, her rights come first. Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #81 June 20, 2007 QuoteNo we are talking about who has the right to make choices regarding the direction someone wishes to make in their life. You Pro-lifers are all too willing to take these choices away from the woman. Why? It appears to be related to your religious beliefs. But maybe I am wrong. Why are you trying to control the destiny of someone else's life? I (and most other posters) have not even mentioned religion. In "Pro-Choice" who actually has choices? Does the fetus? Does the father? Do the tax payers? Are people who are "Pro-Choice" also "Pro-Choice" when it comes to other issues (assisted suicide, drugs, guns, sexuality, etc...)?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #82 June 20, 2007 Yeah.. I guess my ideas are jaded by 40+ years of dealing with dating sometimes more actively than others... I guess I have heard it all... in that time. Most men get really scared about the consequences.... but seem to have no issue with the sex.. as long as they can get thier dicks wet....Ever heard the old addages ..."a stiff dick has no consience" "find em..feel em fuck em...forget em"... and on and on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #83 June 20, 2007 QuoteIn "Pro-Choice" who actually has choices? Does the fetus? Does the father? Do the tax payers? Are people who are "Pro-Choice" also "Pro-Choice" when it comes to other issues (assisted suicide, drugs, guns, sexuality, etc...)? 1) Well let's take away the fetus here because we all know they can not choose anything at this early stage of their existence. 2) As for men, stop painting us as victims. The vast majority of the men in these abortion cases were in only for sex. Plus we are not the ones who have to endure the hardships of the pregnancy. 3) Assisted suicide? Sure I support this. If someone does not want to live, why should they? It is their life is it not? 4) Drugs? Can you be more specific exactly what you want to debate? If you're talking about casual soft drugs usage, why not let people choose. Alcohol causes more damage yet we let people choose there. I need more specifics here. 5) Guns? In a past life I may have been on the gun-control side. But thanks to a little debating and self educating I have since changed my stance and now believe it is okay for people to choose whether or not they wish to arm themselves. Just as long as they do not have a criminal/mental health history, I feel it is okay to let people choose here. 6) Sexuality ... more specifics here please. Are you referring to hetrosexual versus homosexual choices? I fall into hetrosexual camp, but I do believe it is okay for homosexuals to choose to be together and they should NOT be desciminated against. If you see the common denominator here is that I believe we should give people the choice to choose what direction they want to take their lives. Pro-lifers want to take this choice away from women. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #84 June 20, 2007 I don't dispute any of that, but what does it have to do with someone posting a story about an unplanned pregnancy, where the guy wanted to keep the baby and the girl had an abortion... and your reply of:QuoteIt would behoove him to date someone who also wanted children in that case. Get married.. have children.. isnt that what is supported by those on the right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #85 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteIn "Pro-Choice" who actually has choices? Does the fetus? Does the father? Do the tax payers? Are people who are "Pro-Choice" also "Pro-Choice" when it comes to other issues (assisted suicide, drugs, guns, sexuality, etc...)? Well let's take away the fetus here because we all know they can not choose anything at this early stage of their existence.Neither do babies in their first year of life. QuoteAs for men, stop painting us as victims. It's not about being victims. It's about having any (as in more than zero) rights in the matter. QuoteAssisted suicide? Sure I support this. If someone does not want to live, why should they? It is their life is it not? Irrelevant analogy. QuoteDrugs? Can you be more specific exactly what you want to debate? If you're talking about casual soft drugs usage, why not let people choose. Alcohol causes more damage yet we let people choose there. I need more specifics here.How about heroin, crack and meth? After all, it's their body. QuoteIf you see the common denominator here is that I believe we should give people the choice to choose what direction they want to take their lives. Pro-lifers want to take this choice away from women. "Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies (I think). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #86 June 20, 2007 Very simple... if they are going to have sex... I would say they better be on the same page about how to handle the consequences should the birth control fail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #87 June 20, 2007 QuoteVery simple... if they are going to have sex... I would say they better be on the same page about how to handle the consequences should the birth control fail. Doesn't that apply to both sexes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #88 June 20, 2007 I dont think I have EVER said something like this in my life " Come on baby... you know I love you" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #89 June 20, 2007 Of course babies cannot choose anything during their first year or so. However, at that point, the baby is a separate entity from the mother, and can be given up to other people who can care for it. Before birth, that isn't an option yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #90 June 20, 2007 Quote"Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies Pro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks2065 0 #91 June 20, 2007 i think that if the mother has 3 months to decide the father should also - if the woman decides to keep the baby the father should not be held responsible and she should understand that - to many times a woman gets pregnant to trap a guy or comes back later after the baby is born to dig in his pockets - they both made the baby but why does the woman have the only say on what happens - therefore the father should be notified about the pregnancy and be given time to make his decision before the fetus is 3 months - this would make people think twice about trying to trap their partner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #92 June 20, 2007 Quote I dont think I have EVER said something like this in my life " Come on baby... you know I love you" Me neither. What's your point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #93 June 20, 2007 Ok, my current belief is that the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the women. If I disregard the right to life of the fetus (and all financial aspects) then I believe it should be the choice of the women. However, this raises another question. Since the women has the right to choose an abortion should the father have the right to not pay child support and waive parental rights?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #94 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuote"Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies Pro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? Who has claimed "fetus is more important than the woman"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #95 June 20, 2007 read the post above yours. "Ok, my current belief is that the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the women." -butters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #96 June 20, 2007 QuotePro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? I believe the right to life of the fetus trumps the right for the woman to choose an abortion. I believe this because the woman (and man) have choices prior to conception and I believe that the fetus is a developing human and deserves the right to life. Edit: Once again, I do believe that there are exceptions to almost every rule."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #97 June 20, 2007 No, the father should not have the right to not pay child support, because after the birth of the child, the debate is not about the woman's body, but about the care of the child. However, there are ways to remove the parental obligation, such as signing away rights, adoption, etc. After the child's birth, it's not about parents rights or choices. It's about making sure the child is not a burden on society. Men and women can both make a choice before pregnancy. Men who don't want children should wear condoms to lower their risk, even if the woman claims to be on birth control. Birth control can fail or be forgotten. Condoms can also fail, but the odds of both failing at once are extremely small. However, because the child is inside the woman's body, not the man's, her option to choose is extended for the duration of the pregnancy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #98 June 20, 2007 Quote read the post above yours. "Ok, my current belief is that the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the women." -butters I guess that applies if you equate DEATH with being pregnant for nine months!Me? I don't see them as being equal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Butters 0 #99 June 20, 2007 QuoteNo, the father should not have the right to not pay child support, because after the birth of the child, the debate is not about the woman's body, but about the care of the child. However, there are ways to remove the parental obligation, such as signing away rights, adoption, etc. After the child's birth, it's not about parents rights or choices. It's about making sure the child is not a burden on society. Men and women can both make a choice before pregnancy. Men who don't want children should wear condoms to lower their risk, even if the woman claims to be on birth control. Birth control can fail or be forgotten. Condoms can also fail, but the odds of both failing at once are extremely small. However, because the child is inside the woman's body, not the man's, her option to choose is extended for the duration of the pregnancy. This doesn't appear to be "Pro-Choice". This appears to increase the choice of the mother and decrease the choice of the father? If the mother can choose an abortion before birth and adoption after birth why can't the man choose to not pay child support either before or after birth?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CanuckInUSA 0 #100 June 20, 2007 Quotewhy can't the man choose to not pay child support either before or after birth? news flash ... there is no shortage of dead beat dads out there who have made this decision not to support their child. 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Butters 0 #81 June 20, 2007 QuoteNo we are talking about who has the right to make choices regarding the direction someone wishes to make in their life. You Pro-lifers are all too willing to take these choices away from the woman. Why? It appears to be related to your religious beliefs. But maybe I am wrong. Why are you trying to control the destiny of someone else's life? I (and most other posters) have not even mentioned religion. In "Pro-Choice" who actually has choices? Does the fetus? Does the father? Do the tax payers? Are people who are "Pro-Choice" also "Pro-Choice" when it comes to other issues (assisted suicide, drugs, guns, sexuality, etc...)?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #82 June 20, 2007 Yeah.. I guess my ideas are jaded by 40+ years of dealing with dating sometimes more actively than others... I guess I have heard it all... in that time. Most men get really scared about the consequences.... but seem to have no issue with the sex.. as long as they can get thier dicks wet....Ever heard the old addages ..."a stiff dick has no consience" "find em..feel em fuck em...forget em"... and on and on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #83 June 20, 2007 QuoteIn "Pro-Choice" who actually has choices? Does the fetus? Does the father? Do the tax payers? Are people who are "Pro-Choice" also "Pro-Choice" when it comes to other issues (assisted suicide, drugs, guns, sexuality, etc...)? 1) Well let's take away the fetus here because we all know they can not choose anything at this early stage of their existence. 2) As for men, stop painting us as victims. The vast majority of the men in these abortion cases were in only for sex. Plus we are not the ones who have to endure the hardships of the pregnancy. 3) Assisted suicide? Sure I support this. If someone does not want to live, why should they? It is their life is it not? 4) Drugs? Can you be more specific exactly what you want to debate? If you're talking about casual soft drugs usage, why not let people choose. Alcohol causes more damage yet we let people choose there. I need more specifics here. 5) Guns? In a past life I may have been on the gun-control side. But thanks to a little debating and self educating I have since changed my stance and now believe it is okay for people to choose whether or not they wish to arm themselves. Just as long as they do not have a criminal/mental health history, I feel it is okay to let people choose here. 6) Sexuality ... more specifics here please. Are you referring to hetrosexual versus homosexual choices? I fall into hetrosexual camp, but I do believe it is okay for homosexuals to choose to be together and they should NOT be desciminated against. If you see the common denominator here is that I believe we should give people the choice to choose what direction they want to take their lives. Pro-lifers want to take this choice away from women. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #84 June 20, 2007 I don't dispute any of that, but what does it have to do with someone posting a story about an unplanned pregnancy, where the guy wanted to keep the baby and the girl had an abortion... and your reply of:QuoteIt would behoove him to date someone who also wanted children in that case. Get married.. have children.. isnt that what is supported by those on the right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #85 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteIn "Pro-Choice" who actually has choices? Does the fetus? Does the father? Do the tax payers? Are people who are "Pro-Choice" also "Pro-Choice" when it comes to other issues (assisted suicide, drugs, guns, sexuality, etc...)? Well let's take away the fetus here because we all know they can not choose anything at this early stage of their existence.Neither do babies in their first year of life. QuoteAs for men, stop painting us as victims. It's not about being victims. It's about having any (as in more than zero) rights in the matter. QuoteAssisted suicide? Sure I support this. If someone does not want to live, why should they? It is their life is it not? Irrelevant analogy. QuoteDrugs? Can you be more specific exactly what you want to debate? If you're talking about casual soft drugs usage, why not let people choose. Alcohol causes more damage yet we let people choose there. I need more specifics here.How about heroin, crack and meth? After all, it's their body. QuoteIf you see the common denominator here is that I believe we should give people the choice to choose what direction they want to take their lives. Pro-lifers want to take this choice away from women. "Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies (I think). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #86 June 20, 2007 Very simple... if they are going to have sex... I would say they better be on the same page about how to handle the consequences should the birth control fail. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #87 June 20, 2007 QuoteVery simple... if they are going to have sex... I would say they better be on the same page about how to handle the consequences should the birth control fail. Doesn't that apply to both sexes? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #88 June 20, 2007 I dont think I have EVER said something like this in my life " Come on baby... you know I love you" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #89 June 20, 2007 Of course babies cannot choose anything during their first year or so. However, at that point, the baby is a separate entity from the mother, and can be given up to other people who can care for it. Before birth, that isn't an option yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #90 June 20, 2007 Quote"Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies Pro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #91 June 20, 2007 i think that if the mother has 3 months to decide the father should also - if the woman decides to keep the baby the father should not be held responsible and she should understand that - to many times a woman gets pregnant to trap a guy or comes back later after the baby is born to dig in his pockets - they both made the baby but why does the woman have the only say on what happens - therefore the father should be notified about the pregnancy and be given time to make his decision before the fetus is 3 months - this would make people think twice about trying to trap their partner Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #92 June 20, 2007 Quote I dont think I have EVER said something like this in my life " Come on baby... you know I love you" Me neither. What's your point? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #93 June 20, 2007 Ok, my current belief is that the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the women. If I disregard the right to life of the fetus (and all financial aspects) then I believe it should be the choice of the women. However, this raises another question. Since the women has the right to choose an abortion should the father have the right to not pay child support and waive parental rights?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #94 June 20, 2007 QuoteQuote"Pro-lifers" want to give some rights to unborn babies Pro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? Who has claimed "fetus is more important than the woman"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #95 June 20, 2007 read the post above yours. "Ok, my current belief is that the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the women." -butters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #96 June 20, 2007 QuotePro-lifers aren't being very honest with us here. I am pro-choice because I want to give women control over the direction they want to take their lives. So please can at least one pro-lifer tell us why the fetus is more important than the woman? I believe the right to life of the fetus trumps the right for the woman to choose an abortion. I believe this because the woman (and man) have choices prior to conception and I believe that the fetus is a developing human and deserves the right to life. Edit: Once again, I do believe that there are exceptions to almost every rule."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #97 June 20, 2007 No, the father should not have the right to not pay child support, because after the birth of the child, the debate is not about the woman's body, but about the care of the child. However, there are ways to remove the parental obligation, such as signing away rights, adoption, etc. After the child's birth, it's not about parents rights or choices. It's about making sure the child is not a burden on society. Men and women can both make a choice before pregnancy. Men who don't want children should wear condoms to lower their risk, even if the woman claims to be on birth control. Birth control can fail or be forgotten. Condoms can also fail, but the odds of both failing at once are extremely small. However, because the child is inside the woman's body, not the man's, her option to choose is extended for the duration of the pregnancy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #98 June 20, 2007 Quote read the post above yours. "Ok, my current belief is that the right to life of the fetus trumps the choice of the women." -butters I guess that applies if you equate DEATH with being pregnant for nine months!Me? I don't see them as being equal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #99 June 20, 2007 QuoteNo, the father should not have the right to not pay child support, because after the birth of the child, the debate is not about the woman's body, but about the care of the child. However, there are ways to remove the parental obligation, such as signing away rights, adoption, etc. After the child's birth, it's not about parents rights or choices. It's about making sure the child is not a burden on society. Men and women can both make a choice before pregnancy. Men who don't want children should wear condoms to lower their risk, even if the woman claims to be on birth control. Birth control can fail or be forgotten. Condoms can also fail, but the odds of both failing at once are extremely small. However, because the child is inside the woman's body, not the man's, her option to choose is extended for the duration of the pregnancy. This doesn't appear to be "Pro-Choice". This appears to increase the choice of the mother and decrease the choice of the father? If the mother can choose an abortion before birth and adoption after birth why can't the man choose to not pay child support either before or after birth?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #100 June 20, 2007 Quotewhy can't the man choose to not pay child support either before or after birth? news flash ... there is no shortage of dead beat dads out there who have made this decision not to support their child. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
