Abortion & Capital Punishment

[Clownburner 0]

I'm pro-choice because I don't believe anyone (especially the government) has a right to tell anyone what to do with their body. I do think that abortion should be a last resort, and there are alternatives that might be better, but no one should force a woman to carry a child she doesn't want. If it were my child, I'd hope to have some say in influencing the decision she makes, for obvious reasons. But this clearly falls into the category of "not the government's business in any way."

As for capital punishment, I can't support it, because there's no way to be completely 100% sure of someone's guilt, and the legal system is deeply flawed in many ways (though it is not without merit). Without complete certainty, taking someones life is just never justified, as it can never be repealed or undone. And in the current system, it's very inefficient anyway, and costs more than LWP, so there's not much point to it except to add the smell of "vengeance" to our legal system, which most developed countries have already decided isn't a good thing.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[Amazon 7]

In most of the world .............women have no choice what so ever.... their lives are indeed controlled by men.. period.. and if a man can get them pregnant she has no other choice than to have the child.. which still kills a hell of a lot of women every year.

[HeadCone 0]

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Please go back and read where I said I do not want governments involved. Of course I am not female so I do not know what emotions would go through a woman's mind when she finds out she is pregnant. My stance is that hopefully she thinks carefully about all of the options which are available to her and that she consults her spouse (if there is a spouse). But whatever choice she feels is right for her life is the choice I support. Once again I strongly believe that she should be allowed to control her own destiny.

Ok, perhaps I'm the one being daft but I still don't understand how your response above jives with "I am not advocating easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control." Who, besides the government, makes access to abortion not easy?

Why should she think about it at all? She doesn't want to be pregnant and abortion cures that. What else matters?

Maybe this isn't you, but there's a position on abortion that goes like this: I don't really care for abortion and I wouldn't do it myself, but I wouldn't take that away from someone else. I realize there are some things in life that people don't like but wouldn't want to see made illegal. I don't understand how abortion is one of those things.

--Head

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[Shotgun 1]

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For those who have a "moral" or "religious" issue with abortion (or capital punishment), logically they should have the same for capital punishment (or abortion).

If someone has a moral issue with killing an unborn baby, why would it be logical that they should also have a moral issue with killing someone who has committed a horrible crime? The two seem completely different to me.

[PLFXpert 0]

You're correct to point that out, as "moral" has many meanings. I was speaking more to the "morals" taught as "right" and "wrong" in religion.

I will edit out "moral" and leave it just as "religion".

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If someone has a moral issue with killing an unborn baby, why would it be logical that they should also have a moral issue with killing someone who has committed a horrible crime? The two seem completely different to me.

Would you say you value some lives more than others?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Why should she think about it at all? She doesn't want to be pregnant and abortion cures that. What else matters?

If it takes a woman 1 second to decide "I don't want to be pregnant", then I support her decision. But to throw a curve ball into the thread, if she is married, she should consult her husband. I still say the ultimate decision should be hers (I know that sounds kind of contradictory), but marriage is supposed to be a partnership and maybe the husband could present an argument why they should have the baby. But ... not to sound like a broken record ... it is her body, her life and she is the one who must endure the pregnancy and ultimately I feel it should be her decision. I know there is no shortage of people who feel I am full of it.

I'm just putting my two cents on the table ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Shotgun 1]

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You're correct to point that out, as "moral" has many meanings. I was speaking more to the "morals" taught as "right" and "wrong" in religion.

Oh, ok. I guess I don't make much of a connection between "morals" and "religion," so I didn't read it that way.

But yeah, for anyone who believes in the ten commandments (for example), it would be logical that "Thou shalt not kill" should apply to unborn babies and criminals alike.

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Would you say you value some lives more than others?

Probably. For instance, if I were in a situation where I had to choose between saving my mother's life or a stranger's life, I would certainly choose my mother. I guess that means that I value her life more than the stranger's.

And would I be more upset about an unborn baby being killed than I would about a murderer being killed? Probably. But I can't say that I'm really pro-capital punishment.

[PLFXpert 0]

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if I were in a situation where I had to choose between saving my mother's life or a stranger's life, I would certainly choose my mother. I guess that means that I value her life more than the stranger's.

I wouldn't call that "value" so much as "preference".

But, I suppose we're not debating semantics here.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[wmw999 2,589]

There really is a difference between being pro-abortion and pro-choice.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Butters 0]

Yes, yes there is. However, Pro-Choice can mean many things. I'm Anti-Abortion but I'm Pro-Choice.

PS: What choice does the fetus or the father have? I believe the choice is whether to have sex and whether to use protection.

PPS: Yes, the world is not black and white, it is gray and I believe there exceptions to almost every rule.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

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Some, however, don't have a "moral" or "religious" issue with either, and thus can support one and not the other for other various reasons and not be hypocritical.

I understand this ... I know that I don't know everything and that is why I asked if people could explain their perspective (especially the one that I understood the least).

PS: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2853191;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#2853271

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What choice does the fetus or the father have?

I'd be willing to bet that in the vast majority of the cases where a woman had an abortion, the father was in it for only one reason. Sex. Men should not be playing the victim game here. Sure they may be isolated cases ... but if the man truly cared about him female partner he would honor her wishes. We have it easy ... we're not the ones going through the pregnancy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Butters 0]

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What choice does the fetus or the father have?

I'd be willing to bet that in the vast majority of the cases where a woman had an abortion, the father was in it for only one reason. Sex. Men should not be playing the victim game here. Sure they may be isolated cases ... but if the man truly cared about him female partner he would honor her wishes. We have it easy ... we're not the ones going through the pregnancy.

I knew a guy and girl in college who became pregnant. He wanted the child. She didn't want the child and got an abortion. Is this an isolated case, probably. However, innocent people being executed are probably isolated cases but many people on here are against capital punishment because of those isolated cases.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

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I knew a guy and girl in college who became pregnant. He wanted the child. She didn't want the child and got an abortion.

It would behoove him to date someone who also wanted children in that case. Get married.. have children.. isnt that what is supported by those on the right?

[PLFXpert 0]

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Yes, yes there is. However, Pro-Choice can mean many things. I'm Anti-Abortion but I'm Pro-Choice.

I voted originally based on what I thought you meant. Now I don't know what you meant.

I view the terms "pro-choice" and "pro-life" as legal positions, not personal opinions.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Butters 0]

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It would behoove him to date someone who also wanted children in that case. Get married.. have children.. isnt that what is supported by those on the right?

Would you please refrain from posting to any of my threads and posts. Your reading and or comprehension skills are lacking. I have never said I am on the right or left. You have no idea what side I'm on politically, religously, or in general. I am attempting to broaden my perspectives. When I broaden my perspective I have questions. The same questions I ask myself I am asking other people. I was making the statement that I don't feel Pro-Choice is an accurate label when it comes to abortion because I feel that there are people who have no choice when it comes to abortion.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[NCclimber 0]

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I knew a guy and girl in college who became pregnant. He wanted the child. She didn't want the child and got an abortion.

It would behoove him to date someone who also wanted children in that case. Get married.. have children.. isnt that what is supported by those on the right?

I guess the same standard could be applied to women who unexpectedly find themselves pregnant.

[Amazon 7]

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I guess the same standard could be applied to women who unexpectedly find themselves pregnant.

I would suggest that if you feel so strongly that you would support a world in which NO SEX occurs until they figure out how they will raise the child they are about to possibly create. In an activity where one of the consequences is getting the woman pregnant then BOTH of them should discuss the possible outcomes and what they should and would do about it BEFORE engaging in sex.... you cant have it both ways...promiscuity with as many women as you want.. with no responsibility.

Communication is key...and both parties need to be TRUTHFULL with each other

[NCclimber 0]

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I guess the same standard could be applied to women who unexpectedly find themselves pregnant.

I would suggest that if you feel so strongly that you would support a world in which NO SEX occurs until they figure out how they will raise the child they are about to possibly create. In an activity where one of the consequences is getting the woman pregnant then BOTH of them should discuss the possible outcomes and what they should and would do about it BEFORE engaging in sex.... you cant have it both ways...promiscuity with as many women as you want.. with no responsibility.

Communication is key...and both parties need to be TRUTHFULL with each other

What's your point? You seem to all over the place in the above post.

[rehmwa 2]

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I would suggest that if you feel so strongly that you would support a world in which NO SEX occurs until they figure out how they will raise the child they are about to possibly create. In an activity where one of the consequences is getting the woman pregnant then BOTH of them should discuss the possible outcomes and what they should and would do about it BEFORE engaging in sex.... you cant have it both ways...promiscuity with as many women as you want.. with no responsibility.

Communication is key...and both parties need to be TRUTHFULL with each other

What's your point? You seem to all over the place in the above post.

What's her point? Maybe it's a non sequitor in terms of your personal debate with her, but

"support a world in which NO SEX occurs until they figure out how they will raise the child they are about to possibly create. In an activity where one of the consequences is getting the woman pregnant then BOTH of them should discuss the possible outcomes and what they should and would do about it BEFORE engaging in sex"

is dead on as an 'adult' personal responsibility position (though I think the ending caviats are intended to be subtle gratuitious slams, the point is how it should be) -

though it might kill the mood


so - is there a one person here that can claim they have EVER had this conversation pre-engagement/marriage before the first time with a partner?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

Yeah - but then she wrote "you cant have it both ways...promiscuity with as many women as you want.. with no responsibility.

Communication is key...and both parties need to be TRUTHFULL with each other".

Kind of a "let's all be responsible" to "me are pigs" then back to "let's all be responsible"... all to back up her claim that the guy should have determined if a woman wants to settle down and have children before ever having sex with her, which was irrelevant to the point of the "guy wanted to keep baby" post.

[Nightingale 0]

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As long as the fetus is inside a woman, it's her choice whether to continue to carry it.

While I respect your personal view, we're not talking about 'carrying it' we're talking about killing it. How can a woman (or man) have the 'right' to kill a unborn child?

The fetus is inside her body, changing it, taking nutrients from it, and altering the way it functions.

If we can come up with a way to remove the fetus and gestate it elsewhere without subjecting the mother to a level of risk higher than current, I'm all for outlawing abortion and taking the fetus out and giving the resulting child to someone who wants it, provided there is a waiting list of people willing to raise the kid. The thing is, as long as we don't have a way to remove the fetus from the woman without killing the fetus, since it's her body that's hosting the fetus, her rights come first.

[NCclimber 0]

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As long as the fetus is inside a woman, it's her choice whether to continue to carry it.

While I respect your personal view, we're not talking about 'carrying it' we're talking about killing it. How can a woman (or man) have the 'right' to kill a unborn child?

The fetus is inside her body, changing it, taking nutrients from it, and altering the way it functions.

If we can come up with a way to remove the fetus and gestate it elsewhere without subjecting the mother to a level of risk higher than current, I'm all for outlawing abortion and taking the fetus out and giving the resulting child to someone who wants it, provided there is a waiting list of people willing to raise the kid. The thing is, as long as we don't have a way to remove the fetus from the woman without killing the fetus, since it's her body that's hosting the fetus, her rights come first.

It sounds like you're making this about enduring the pregancy. I thought the primary issue involved after the pregnancy.

[Nightingale 0]

Well, since abortion occurs during the pregnancy, I think the primary issue is during the pregnancy. After delivery, there are options. Adoption, safe-surrender, raise the kid, etc.... Before delivery, there are two: carry the fetus, or don't.

[NCclimber 0]

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Well, since abortion occurs during the pregnancy, I think the primary issue is during the pregnancy. After delivery, there are options. Adoption, safe-surrender, raise the kid, etc.... Before delivery, there are two: carry the fetus, or don't.

I thought we were talking about motivating factors affecting the decision to abort or not.