Abortion & Capital Punishment

[NCclimber 0]

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it is FAR too costly to put someone to death

I've heard people say this before but can't seem to wrap my head around the math on this one. Care to explain?

The trial and appeals process tend to drag on for a long time.

If we could guarantee with a near 100% level of certainty, that the defendant did in fact commit those crimes, in the manner stated by the prosecution, I'd favor capital punishment a.s.a.p!

However, we're finding more and more people on death row, who are getting their convictions overturned because they were in fact innocent.

[Shotgun 1]

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What choice did the criminal have?

Oh, and what do you mean by this?

[rehmwa 2]

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it is FAR too costly to put someone to death

I've heard people say this before but can't seem to wrap my head around the math on this one. Care to explain?

The legal system has chosen to made it such that The trial and appeals process tend to drag on for a long time and cost a lot.

there you go - if DP was VERY restricted in application (much more than today), and subject to extreme preponderance of evidence and intent, and implemented immediately, then it would be much cheaper.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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How can a woman have the 'right' to kill a unborn child?

Who's rights trump who? Are the rights of the unborn fetus more important than the rights of the woman who is alive and carries this fetus? Why is she not allowed to have a decision on the direction her life is to take? This is yet another example of a man trying to control the lives of women.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rehmwa 2]

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This is yet another example of a man trying to control the lives of women.

{sorry - I really do appreciate your first three sentences as part of the debate}

but last I checked, women are on both sides of the debate, serve in Congress, have law degrees and practices, exist in the womb, practice medicine, have babies, abort viable life masses, etc etc etc

anyway, if you think women have it bad from men, apparently you aren't sensitive to the plight of chickens in skydiving today...

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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What choice did the criminal have?

Oh, and what do you mean by this?

The fetus and father have no choice when it comes to abortion. The criminal had the choice not to commit the crime when it comes to capital punishment.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[NCclimber 0]

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How can a woman have the 'right' to kill a unborn child?

Who's rights trump who? Are the rights of the unborn fetus more important than the rights of the woman who is alive and carries this fetus?

Considering it's the fetus who is getting killed, I think the fetus should have some protections.

On a tangential point, if a women (8 months pregnant) is assaulted and her unborn child dies, should the assailant be charged with anything more than assault?

[rehmwa 2]

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On a tangential point, if a women (8 months pregnant) is assaulted and her unborn child dies, should the assailant be charged with anything more than assault?

Is the assailant female or male?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trent 0]

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I've heard people say this before but can't seem to wrap my head around the math on this one. Care to explain?

Do a search on this forum. It's been talked about. In fact, there's financial figures attached to certain posts in that conversation.

Contrary to what some people here might think me capable of... I changed an opinion after that thread.

Oh, hello again!

[jakee 1,596]

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I always did find it curious that many vehement pro-choicers are also anti-death penalty. It's okay to end a life that could be nothing but innocent, but NOT okay to end a life that has been found to be very FAR from innocent. Strange.

That is the one perspective I do not understand (hence the reason I asked the question). Does anyone care to explain?

It is impossible to implement a capital punishment system without executing innocent people.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Shotgun 1]

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The criminal had the choice not to commit the crime when it comes to capital punishment.

Ah, ok. I thought you were implying that the criminal also had no choice. Sorry, I'm feeling sorta brain dead right now.

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The fetus and father have no choice when it comes to abortion.

The fetus doesn't, but the father might, depending on the situation.

If I got pregnant and wanted to have an abortion (not that I would), I'm pretty sure I would let my husband take part in that decision. Well, unless it wasn't his. (Just kidding!)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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if a women (8 months pregnant) is assaulted and her unborn child dies, should the assailant be charged with anything more than assault?

That will depend on the locals laws where this assault occurred. But why do you present your argument in such a manner that assault is not a serious crime? Assault is assault. One person is doing harm to another and hopefully the jurisdiction where this crime occurs has the balls to throw the book at the perpetrator when such a serious offense is to occur.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Butters 0]

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It is impossible to implement a capital punishment system without executing innocent people.

Is it possible to perform an abortion without killing an innocent person?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Is it possible to perform an abortion without killing an innocent person?

No

however ... is it possible to wage war without killing innocent people?

Once again ... no

But it's funny that so many pro-lifers (not saying you are this way Butters since I don't know your politics) are so kean to back their president to go ahead and wage war.

but to get off of the war topic and back to abortion ...

From my vantage point the vast majority of the pro-lifers are religious people and it appears that they are so concerned about the souls of the unborn. Well I'm sorry to all the religious people out there (once again not direct at Butters since I do not know nor do I care about your religious views), there is absolutely no proof that we humans have souls. We will only know if we have souls when we as individuals leave this world.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 3,119]

>Is it possible to perform an abortion without killing an innocent person?

Some selective reductions kill a fetus that would otherwise kill another fetus (or several.) They are legally innocent, but will cause the death of another fetus.

[NCclimber 0]

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if a women (8 months pregnant) is assaulted and her unborn child dies, should the assailant be charged with anything more than assault?

That will depend on the locals laws where this assault occurred. But why do you present your argument in such a manner that assault is not a serious crime? Assault is assault.

And murder is murder. The difference is significant.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You see you are more concerned about the label of the crime than the punishment. I say throw the book at the scum who assaults a pregnant woman. I don't care what you want to call it.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Butters 0]

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Some selective reductions kill a fetus that would otherwise kill another fetus (or several.) They are legally innocent, but will cause the death of another fetus.

Thanks for the information. (Add another to the list of exceptions.)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[NCclimber 0]

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You see you are more concerned about the label of the crime than the punishment. I say throw the book at the scum who assaults a pregnant woman. I don't care what you want to call it.

I'm more concerned with the nature of the crime.

Assault is not the same as murder.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Well I guess the crux our our disagreement is that I do not view abortion as murder (even though I do recognize it as the killing of an innocent life). My view is that the rights of the woman who has a heart beat and is breathing oxygen trumps the rights of the fetus growing in her body.

Now don't get me wrong here people. I am not advocating easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control. One would hope that the pregnant woman investigates all her options such as adoption before she considers to have an abortion. But I still say the ultimate decision should be hers. It is her body and her life and the last people who should get involved are governments.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[HeadCone 0]

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Now don't get me wrong here people. I am not advocating easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control. One would hope that the pregant woman investigates all her options such as adoption before she considers to have an abortion. But I still say the ultimate decision should be hers. It is her body and her life and the last people who should get involved are governments.

This is what I can't understand. If something is legal, then it's legal and people should be able to do it without arbitrary stumbling blocks. I don't understand how abortion can be at the level of badness that you kind of want to make it hard for woman to do indiscriminately, but not impossible.

--Head

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I don't understand how abortion can be at the level of badness that you kind of want to make it hard for woman to do indiscriminately, but not impossible.

Huh? what am I missing here? Have I all of a sudden been grouped into the pro-lifers side of the argument? Am I just daft or could you have worded this another way because I am saying "let the woman decided her own fate".

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[HeadCone 0]

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Huh? what am I missing here? Have I all of a sudden been grouped into the pro-lifers side of the argument? Am I just daft or could you have worded this another way because I am saying "let the woman decided her own fate".

You're letting a woman decide her own fate, but you did say that you're "not advocating easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control". Why can't a woman have easy access to abortion as a form of convenient birth control? If abortion is legal, why put in arbitrary stumbling blocks to it?

--Head

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[CanuckInUSA 0]

Please go back and read where I said I do not want governments involved. Of course I am not female so I do not know what emotions would go through a woman's mind when she finds out she is pregnant. My stance is that hopefully she thinks carefully about all of the options which are available to her and that she consults her spouse (if there is a spouse). But whatever choice she feels is right for her life is the choice I support. Once again I strongly believe that she should be allowed to control her own destiny.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[PLFXpert 0]

Warning:


Be it abortion or capital punishment, if one believes either should be allowed in some cases, one must accept either will also be performed in other cases.

For those who have different "religious" issues with abortion (or capital punishment), logically they should have the same for capital punishment (or abortion).

Some, however, don't have a "moral" or "religious" issue with either, and thus can support one and not the other for other various reasons and not be hypocritical.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.