Red Dawn

[wmw999 2,589]

You know you watched it,

So -- were the Wolverines terrorists or freedom fighters? And why?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DSE 5]

I'll bite;
~they didn't attack to purport a social statement against the government of the region
~they didn't attack to perpetuate a religious statement against the predominant religion of the region
~they were fighting to maintain the culture they were raised within, on the land where they were raised
~Wolverines fought to protect their way of life, vs killing others for purposes of making them afraid for their lives
~they weren't fundamentalists acting upon the fringes of their society
~they were facing an occupying force in their own homeland
~they weren't the aggressors, but rather the victims.
~Wolverines had no ideals of going to heaven with virgins waiting them, but rather dying to protect what they believe in. They weren't attacking because God told them to, nor because they felt they even had divinity on their side.
~Wolverines were fighting to protect freedoms they'd been given as citizens of this country, not attempting to force their religion and accompanying government down the throats of the aggressors.

Sure, there are parallels, but isn't that true of most any war? Terrorism itself has become a religion, IMO.
Saw an article about a month ago comparing this film to what's happening in Iraq; it's stupid and missing the point to compare them, IMO (I know, you're just looking for a spirited debate).
One thing I did appreciate about this bad film though; it dealt with rape, murder, execution, and other travesties of war in a very frank and honest manner. Strange, for a film that was aimed at the 25y/o male.

[Krip 2]

Hi 999

not 999 stirring the pot oops SC ok
The US was invaded by the brutal commie bad guy's. the commies sobs were killing the elected officials and putting the wolverins friends neigbors and family members in concentration camps.

The wolverins were fighting the commies to return the US to the gov't that was elected by it's citizens, so they were freedom fighters.

The commies labeled the wolverines as terrorists since thet wouldn't "STOP RESTISTING" and were killing commie soldiers

Any comparision between current world events and the movie is purely coincidental

A freedom fighter or terrorist is considered innocent untill killed or convicted.

[billvon 3,120]

They were insurgents, of course.

[Amazon 7]

Whoever wins.. gets to write the history.

[Krip 2]

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Whoever wins.. gets to write the history.

What you talking about, trouble makeing left wing, conservative, you don't know squat

Whoever writes the history wins. (Win win)

[Lindsey 0]

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I'll bite;
~they didn't attack to purport a social statement against the government of the region
~they didn't attack to perpetuate a religious statement against the predominant religion of the region
~they were fighting to maintain the culture they were raised within, on the land where they were raised
~Wolverines fought to protect their way of life, vs killing others for purposes of making them afraid for their lives
~they weren't fundamentalists acting upon the fringes of their society
~they were facing an occupying force in their own homeland
~they weren't the aggressors, but rather the victims.
~Wolverines had no ideals of going to heaven with virgins waiting them, but rather dying to protect what they believe in. They weren't attacking because God told them to, nor because they felt they even had divinity on their side.
~Wolverines were fighting to protect freedoms they'd been given as citizens of this country, not attempting to force their religion and accompanying government down the throats of the aggressors.

First of all, I've never watched the movie, so now I'll have to order it on Netflix.

But, do you have to be making a social statement against the government to be a terrorist?

...or be perpetuating a religious statement?

...or be fundamentalists acting upon the fringes of their society?

...or have ideals of going to heaven with virgins waiting for them? Or attacking because God told them to?

...or attempting to force their religion down anyone's throats?

I think terrorists are people who attempt to get their way through violence or threats of violence. Religion is a current theme, but certainly not a defining factor in terrorism on the whole.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[GQ_jumper 4]

~they didn't attack to purport a social statement against the government of the region
~they didn't attack to perpetuate a religious statement against the predominant religion of the region
~they were fighting to maintain the culture they were raised within, on the land where they were raised
~Wolverines fought to protect their way of life, vs killing others for purposes of making them afraid for their lives
~they weren't fundamentalists acting upon the fringes of their society
~they were facing an occupying force in their own homeland
~they weren't the aggressors, but rather the victims.
~Wolverines had no ideals of going to heaven with virgins waiting them, but rather dying to protect what they believe in. They weren't attacking because God told them to, nor because they felt they even had divinity on their side.
~Wolverines were fighting to protect freedoms they'd been given as citizens of this country, not attempting to force their religion and accompanying government down the throats of the aggressors.

Quote

I agree with most of your points, but if you look at our current situation, thanks to a few bad apples in the US military quite a few people in Iraq feel that we are the same as the communists that invaded in Red Dawn. Not to mention all the people who live in remote villages that just don't know any better, they haven't had any interactions with US forces, good, bad, whatever, so they believe what they are told and there are plenty of people out there who are telling them we are here to destroy their way of life put them in prison camps and force our culture upon them. Its ashame that we are having to engage people who would most likely have no issue with us if they had been afforded the opportunity to see that we are aspiring to do good things. In some ways however, we are trying to change their way of life, we are pushing democracy on them and honestly, these people have never known democracy and it may not be the best for them, just because it works for us doesn't mean it's for everyone.

Holy crap, looking at what I just wrote it hit me, I must be getting soft in my old age!!! It's no longer us vs. them in my mind

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[azdiver 0]

they werent going out and intentionally killing civilians, they targeted the troops and bases not dinners and markets

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[vortexring 0]

Fair enough - but there is something I've never been able to understand about these remote villagers you mention.

How on earth do they keep their white clothing so white? These are people in the middle of nowhere living in mud huts. My Arabic didn't go so far to question this, despite the matter being such a mystery.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[lawrocket 3]

All of the above. Terrorists, freedom fighters, insurgents, kids, punks, bombers, etc.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Trent 0]

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they werent going out and intentionally killing civilians, they targeted the troops and bases not dinners and markets

I think this needs repeating...

And an insurgent does not necessarily have anything to do with being a terrorist.

Oh, hello again!

[DSE 5]

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they werent going out and intentionally killing civilians, they targeted the troops and bases not dinners and markets

I think this needs repeating...

And an insurgent does not necessarily have anything to do with being a terrorist.

Couldn't agree more. In the most loose terms, I could possibly be considered an insurgent, like many here. While I haven't revolted against the constituted government, I've publically spoken out against them.
Terrorists are generally fundamentalists, radicals, and often cover their activities with a religious cloak.

I'm more curious as to why the US (and other countries) aren't doing more to subvert and destroy Islam itself.

[Richards 0]

I do not recall the wolverines setting off bombs in crowded markets, kidnapping journalists for beheading videos, torturing and executing any local officials who happened to try to help at all with keeping order (where is the line drawn at for collaboration?).

I acknowledge that anyone can be understandably motivated to fight back when thier homeland is invaded, so I cannot say that every tribal elder who fights against US forces is a terrorist. Many are just simple peasants who are responding to foreign troops in their land while some are imported Al Qaeda types. I don't think it is that black and white.

The ones in Red Dawn would not have qualified as terrorists I don't think.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[akarunway 1]

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Hi 999

not 999 stirring the pot oops SC ok
The US was invaded by the brutal commie bad guy's. the commies sobs were killing the elected officials and putting the wolverins friends neigbors and family members in concentration camps.

The wolverins were fighting the commies to return the US to the gov't that was elected by it's citizens, so they were freedom fighters.

The commies labeled the wolverines as terrorists since thet wouldn't "STOP RESTISTING" and were killing commie soldiers

Any comparision between current world events and the movie is purely coincidental

A freedom fighter or terrorist is considered innocent untill killed or convicted.

Or put in Gitmo w/ no legal counsul or rendered to come unnamed country for better treatment yet.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

~they didn't attack to purport a social statement against the government of the region
~they didn't attack to perpetuate a religious statement against the predominant religion of the region
~they were fighting to maintain the culture they were raised within, on the land where they were raised
~Wolverines fought to protect their way of life, vs killing others for purposes of making them afraid for their lives
~they weren't fundamentalists acting upon the fringes of their society
~they were facing an occupying force in their own homeland
~they weren't the aggressors, but rather the victims.
~Wolverines had no ideals of going to heaven with virgins waiting them, but rather dying to protect what they believe in. They weren't attacking because God told them to, nor because they felt they even had divinity on their side.
~Wolverines were fighting to protect freedoms they'd been given as citizens of this country, not attempting to force their religion and accompanying government down the throats of the aggressors.

Quote

I agree with most of your points, but if you look at our current situation, thanks to a few bad apples in the US military quite a few people in Iraq feel that we are the same as the communists that invaded in Red Dawn. Not to mention all the people who live in remote villages that just don't know any better, they haven't had any interactions with US forces, good, bad, whatever, so they believe what they are told and there are plenty of people out there who are telling them we are here to destroy their way of life put them in prison camps and force our culture upon them. Its ashame that we are having to engage people who would most likely have no issue with us if they had been afforded the opportunity to see that we are aspiring to do good things. In some ways however, we are trying to change their way of life, we are pushing democracy on them and honestly, these people have never known democracy and it may not be the best for them, just because it works for us doesn't mean it's for everyone.

Holy crap, looking at what I just wrote it hit me, I must be getting soft in my old age!!! It's no longer us vs. them in my mind

Damn son. You ARE starting to see the light. Get back to me in 20 -30 yrs.I'll prolly be dead by then tho.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Krip 2]

Hi R

From what i remember back in the day (purple haze)

There was a scene where onof the women wolveriens left a bomb in front of a bank(coalition headqtrs building) so there may have be collateral damage.

The wolveriens also executed some of the soldiers they captured (bullets)

Wolveriens were still freedom fighters, just like the french in occupied france (WW2).

[Gawain 0]

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Fair enough - but there is something I've never been able to understand about these remote villagers you mention.

How on earth do they keep their white clothing so white? These are people in the middle of nowhere living in mud huts. My Arabic didn't go so far to question this, despite the matter being such a mystery.

While I was over there, I wondered the same thing. Not all of their clothing is like that, but the ultra white I think is in part the virgin wool/cotton and how it's woven -- making it easier to keep clean.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Richards 0]

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From what i remember back in the day (purple haze)

Indulged in some BC Gold back in the day?

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There was a scene where onof the women wolveriens left a bomb in front of a bank(coalition headqtrs building) so there may have be collateral damage.

I can't remember the scene (the movie was so long ago), but I guess the distinction would be collateral damge when hitting a military (or military support/infrastructure) target vs deliberately targetting civilians.

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The wolveriens also executed some of the soldiers they captured (bullets)

I guess with any insurgency there are no POW facilities available to he insurgents so holding prisoners may not be feasible.

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Wolveriens were still freedom fighters, just like the french in occupied france (WW2).

[Amazon 7]

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The ones in Red Dawn would not have qualified as terrorists I don't think.

Dont forget the bomb that the girl takes into the building in the middle of town...plenty of civilians around if you look at the scene as the building blows up..It may have been a HQ building..as you said not so so black and white. War does horrible things to many people on both sides of a conflict....even to those who survive and have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.

[Richards 0]

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Dont forget the bomb that the girl takes into the building in the middle of town...plenty of civilians around if you look at the scene as the building blows up..It may have been a HQ building..as you said not so so black and white. War does horrible things to many people on both sides of a conflict....even to those who survive and have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.

[Krip 2]

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The ones in Red Dawn would not have qualified as terrorists I don't think.

Dont forget the bomb that the girl takes into the building in the middle of town...plenty of civilians around if you look at the scene as the building blows up..It may have been a HQ building..as you said not so so black and white. War does horrible things to many people on both sides of a conflict....even to those who survive and have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.

War bad

Spend money, make friends run for president get elected.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Spend money, make friends run for president get elected.

Not for me.. too much of a sordid past... pictures with Cabana Boys etc....

[Gawain 0]

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Quote

Spend money, make friends run for president get elected.

Not for me.. too much of a sordid past... pictures with Cabana Boys etc....

Yeah, but would you vote for me?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Krip 2]

Quote

Quote

Spend money, make friends run for president get elected.

Not for me.. too much of a sordid past... pictures with Cabana Boys etc....

Think "slick" Amazon, any pic's over 5 yr's old don't count

Deny every thing. Worked for slick willy/gw and they could get reelected if they could run again, now slick willy will be one of Mr's Clintons top advisors if/when she/they get elected.