Will Palestine Desintegrate?

[idrankwhat 0]

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Actually it wasn't a very good deal for the PA. Have you seen the proposed map? The "Palestinian state" basically was comprised of four separate reservations (my word) with access controlled by Israel.

I didn't think that proposal ever actually got out for public viewing. Perhaps you're thinking of later proposals. I've heard extensive interviews of Dennis Ross, the chief US representative during the negotiations. He does not seem to be an idealog at all, and his detailed accounting of what happened left no room for doubt that Arafat didn't really want a peace that included the survival of Israel.

This was the map that came to mind. I couldn't get access to the map that is posted at Harpers, where the story came from, but this site has a copy.
http://palestineremembered.com/images/Palestine-Shrinking.jpg

And here's another. The maps are at the bottom. They also show what is essentially three, non-contiguous "reservations" littered with Jewish settlements, military installations and under near complete control of the Israeli military. Also Israel gets all of Jerusalem, which as far as I'm concerned is a bad idea. It's just another hand over of the city to one religion. It seems to me that unless all three religions can lay some sort of claim to Jerusalem, that city is doomed to another battle in the future.
http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/maps/

[idrankwhat 0]

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I'm not going to get into Gaza right now but there seems to be plenty to illustratate that while the "withdrawl" was official and the settlers left that the military presence didn't.

wrong. all military presence was removed also. the only place where there is a "kind" of presence is by remote video in the border crossing between Gaza and egypt which is supposed to be monitored by UN or european personnel (not that it matters because they cross wherever they want anyway)

Sounds like more that just video surveillance to me.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1782415,00.html

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The question I have for you is, has Israel been continuing to annex the west bank

the only part "annexed" by law is Jerusalem.
And the Palestinians who live there can't get building permits to build on their own land, or some "problem" is found so their structures are bulldozed.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engMDE150522006?open&of=eng-ISR

the rest of the west bank is not considered Israeli by Israeli law (suggesting that there was no long term desire to keep it.
I agree that many of the settlements in the west bank are a waste of time and money and everybody knows that they will be removed when peace is achieved.
As a third party looking in, your explanation not only doesn't make sense because of the settlements are listed on the proposed peace maps, but it makes absolutely no sense at all to continue to build in an area that you claim to plan to abandon. If Israel wants peace, and as you say, is planning on removing its settlements, they why not discontinue settling, pull out and THEN try to make peace? Expecting the Palestinians to believe that you plan to leave by continuing to take land and build is just plain ridiculous.
but to tell you the truth, although i was very happy to pull out of gaza, seeing the mess that exists there now, i'm not sure i want the same mess 5 minutes from where I live.
Gaza was a test case and there were already plans to pull out from the west bank (with or without negotiations), sadly the palestinians failed this test case big time.
How could they expect to succeed?! All Israeli military attacks aside, Israel blockaded Gaza's commerce and all financial aid was cut off because the US and Israel didn't like the outcome of a democratic election. How can a people make a life for themselves if Israel won't let them sell the fruit that they grow or the products that they produce? It's outrageous to expect them to thrive while essentially locked up in a pen without food and water and getting beaten daily. No wonder they're starting to turn on themselves.

O

[falxori 0]

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Sounds like more that just video surveillance to me.

and yet again you are ignoring the hundreds of missiles launched from Gaza at Israeli towns for no reason.

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As a third party looking in, your explanation not only doesn't make sense because of the settlements are listed on the proposed peace maps, but it makes absolutely no sense at all to continue to build in an area that you claim to plan to abandon.

the proposed maps suggest that some of the larger settlements closer to the border will remain in exchange for lands elsewhere, mostly near Gaza where land reserve are a problem.

and as for your other claim, Israel has taken a part the settlements in Gaza (and some in the west bank) when it decided to pull out, so your conclusion is flawed.

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they why not discontinue settling, pull out and THEN try to make peace?

excellent point. oh wait, that's exactly what we did in Gaza. there is no one to talk to so we pulled out completely. but instead of showing the world that they can start building a nation they kept firing rockets and... well, you see whats going on there.

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Israel blockaded Gaza's commerce

first of all, thats not true. Israel supplies Gaza with fuel, food and other supplies. beside, they have a border with egypt, why not use it for commerce. and last thing, the PA "elected" government is led by Hamas, a sworn enemy that won't even honor signed agreements. does it sound logical to you that Israel will have an open border and allow supplies and money to be delivered to an entity who wishes to destroy it?

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all financial aid was cut off because the US and Israel didn't like the outcome of a democratic election.

the fact that Hamas was elected doesnt make it acceptable. it is still a terror organization that refuses to accept Israel's existance (and even the PA's as it seems now). if the palestinians want to elect Hamas as their leaders, they can live with it. Hitler was also "elected".

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How can a people make a life for themselves if Israel won't let them sell the fruit that they grow or the products that they produce?

once again, show me an example in history of a nation who is "helping" another nation "sell its fruit" while in a state of war.
every time Israel has opened the border crossing there were attempts to blow it up. you can't have commerce when things blow up.

P.S
don't know if you've heard, 3 rockets were launched from Lebanon yesterday into a civilian town.
why? can you think of a good reason?

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

a few notes about your maps...
- the 1947 division plan was based on the population diversity at the time. do I have to remind you who accepted it and who started a war hoping to wipe the jewish community completely?
if you start a war and lose, you lose.

- I'm sure you will point out the changes in population percentage between 1947 and 1949. what you might forget to mention is that a big part of this change is due to the hundreds of thousands of jewish arabs who were kicked out of their homes and were forced to flee.
these refugees are not different from the palestinians who chose to flee israel (thos who chose to stay became israeli citizens). i dont hear you asking all of the arab countries to give them their land and property back...

- for most, it is understood that the solution will be 2 states close to the 1967 borders with border adjustments and land swaps. this is exactly where it was headed in 2000 before arafat blew up the deal. they were also close to an agreement in jerusalme (arab parts will be arabs and jewish parts will be israeli) but then Arafat changed his mind and wanted the western wall too.

and back to the thread's subject. I'm not suprised of whats going on in Gaza. the scene was set ever since Arafat refused to dismantle the terrorist groups and have a single armed force.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[pirana 0]

Well, since they technically do not have status as a state, and the organizing of the people of that "community" has absolutely sucked since I can remember (let's not forget that Yessir Yourafart sponsored terorism too); in my opinion it disintegrated long ago.

The disintegration started the day the Western powers drew some arbitrary lines in the sand and said "Here, you can have this. We don't think the current occupants will mind." Or something to that effect. An attempt to make everything good for all the nasty stuff that Nazi leader did. Everybody happy right, except those Palestinians, but who gives a shit about them right?

Then oil became REALLY important and suddenly having the bulk of the Middle East pissed off wasn't looking like such a good strategy. So take a step back, regroup, install a few puppets, get in bed nice and snuggly with the people with the most oil (House of Saud) and, . . . Voila! All fixed. Then it turns out they are the source of huge terrorist money - not to mention the cradle of radical Islam.

Fucked up again! This world domination game is so much tougher than it looks.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[idrankwhat 0]

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Sounds like more that just video surveillance to me.

and yet again you are ignoring the hundreds of missiles launched from Gaza at Israeli towns for no reason.

That would be like saying that Israel fired those 5100 missiles for no reason. As far as I can tell the shooting never stopped coming from both sides.

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As a third party looking in, your explanation not only doesn't make sense because of the settlements are listed on the proposed peace maps, but it makes absolutely no sense at all to continue to build in an area that you claim to plan to abandon.

the proposed maps suggest that some of the larger settlements closer to the border will remain in exchange for lands elsewhere, mostly near Gaza where land reserve are a problem.

Then what are all of those little blue triangles supposed to be? And what is that strip along the Jordan river? The proposal shows a hacked up land of varying sovereignty/autonomy that is littered with Israeli settlements, that is surrounded by Israeli security control.
http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/maps/finalstatus/2000israeliproposal.jpg

and as for your other claim, Israel has taken a part the settlements in Gaza (and some in the west bank) when it decided to pull out, so your conclusion is flawed.

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they why not discontinue settling, pull out and THEN try to make peace?

excellent point. oh wait, that's exactly what we did in Gaza. there is no one to talk to so we pulled out completely. but instead of showing the world that they can start building a nation they kept firing rockets and... well, you see whats going on there.

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Israel blockaded Gaza's commerce

first of all, thats not true. Israel supplies Gaza with fuel, food and other supplies.

That's right, Israel has complete control. It controls what comes in, goes out, power, water, sea, air, everything. They also want to decide who should lead the Palestinian "democracy". That's my point. There was no such thing as this "complete withdrawl" claim. It seems disingenuous to have Israel control absolutely everything and then complain about the results or get upset when the inhabitants resist. I still think that if you treat people like animals then you shouldn't be surprised when they act like animals.

P.S
don't know if you've heard, 3 rockets were launched from Lebanon yesterday into a civilian town.
why? can you think of a good reason?

I have no idea. Is the Israeli Air Force still terrorizing its neighbors like it has been documented as doing for years? I'm not sure because the UN observation post in that area was blown up by the IDF.


O

[falxori 0]

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The disintegration started the day the Western powers drew some arbitrary lines in the sand and said "Here, you can have this. We don't think the current occupants will mind." Or something to that effect. An attempt to make everything good for all the nasty stuff that Nazi leader did.

do yourself a favor and open an history book.
the problems here and the division plans started long before the Nazis.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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and back to the thread's subject. I'm not suprised of whats going on in Gaza. the scene was set ever since Arafat refused to dismantle the terrorist groups and have a single armed force.

O

I won't disagree with that assessment. But I will also not ignore those actions by my country that did nothing but fuel the division.

[falxori 0]

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That would be like saying that Israel fired those 5100 missiles for no reason. As far as I can tell the shooting never stopped coming from both sides.

maybe if some day rockets will stop flying out of Gaza, you will be proven wrong.

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That's right, Israel has complete control

let me put it in simple words.
Israel controls its side of the border with Gaza and it has the right to decide what crosses this border. the gaza strip has a very long border with egypt as well, but it seems most of the things crossing that borger have a trigger on them...
i have no intention of starving the gaza strip, but if the palestinians voted for a government that wants war with israel, how can they expect israel to provide them with supplies?

btw, the ban of the PA was now lifted since now there is a government without Hamas (at least in the west bank)

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I have no idea. Is the Israeli Air Force still terrorizing its neighbors like it has been documented as doing for years? I'm not sure because the UN observation post in that area was blown up by the IDF.

so let me tell you why.
for once, it wasn't hezbollah, but palestinian groups within lebanon. in case you dont know, there have been bloody clashes lately between the lebanese government and these groups. they are simply trying to drag israel into that mess (same reasons missiles were flying out of gaza while the Palestinians were fighting amongst themselves.

open your eyes. not once have they tried the peaceful way. every time you give them a chance it blows in your face.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[idrankwhat 0]

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That would be like saying that Israel fired those 5100 missiles for no reason. As far as I can tell the shooting never stopped coming from both sides.

maybe if some day rockets will stop flying out of Gaza, you will be proven wrong.

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That's right, Israel has complete control

let me put it in simple words.
Israel controls its side of the border with Gaza and it has the right to decide what crosses this border. the gaza strip has a very long border with egypt as well, but it seems most of the things crossing that borger have a trigger on them...
i have no intention of starving the gaza strip, but if the palestinians voted for a government that wants war with israel, how can they expect israel to provide them with supplies?

btw, the ban of the PA was now lifted since now there is a government without Hamas (at least in the west bank)

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I have no idea. Is the Israeli Air Force still terrorizing its neighbors like it has been documented as doing for years? I'm not sure because the UN observation post in that area was blown up by the IDF.

so let me tell you why.
for once, it wasn't hezbollah, but palestinian groups within lebanon. in case you dont know, there have been bloody clashes lately between the lebanese government and these groups. they are simply trying to drag israel into that mess (same reasons missiles were flying out of gaza while the Palestinians were fighting amongst themselves.

open your eyes. not once have they tried the peaceful way. every time you give them a chance it blows in your face.

O

I enjoy getting your viewpoint because your of your proximity/perspective. And I apologize if I allow my frustration to seep into the discussion. I'm looking at this as an almost complete outsider and I constantly need to remind myself that I would also probably have a different view if I had rockets, bombs and missiles exploding within miles of my house for years. I'd imagine that it's rather desensitizing. All I want is for people to acknowledge that there are at least two sides to this issue. We don't get it portrayed as such over here. And listening to the news on the way home I realized that I'm just going to have to accept that my government is going to continue to buy the governments that it wants. Maybe the influx of money will help out in the short term. But I also realize that we're just taking another step towards not solving the problem. I hope I'm wrong.

[RBM 1]

kinda irrevelent post isn't it?? hell its been desintergrated for a long time now...