Were did God come from?

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't always know when to take your posts seriously and if some sort of an attempt at an intelligent response is desired or if they are simply angry and sarcastic rants to be laughed at by some and totally ignored by others.

a little from Column A - serious
a little from Column B - rants

but let's give Jeanne credit and acknowledge column C - she's just having fun and teasing like the rest of us

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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First, space is not infinite.

How could you possibly know that? Have you seen "the brick wall" at the end with a sign on it saying "You have reached the end."

Science. (However, this depends on the definition of space.)

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Second, everything that is created must have a creator (I believe we agree on this.).

I agree with this but I was unaware that you also believed in the Creator.

I said everything that is created has a creator. This does not imply the creator is God.

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Third, not everything is created (I believe we disagree on this.).

I agree. Only one thing was not created...God.

Are you saying that something (God) that was not created, created everything? If so, something (God) is part of everything and thus if something (God) was not created it is impossible for that something (God) to have created everything. (It is also impossible for something (God) to have created itself (God) because something has to be created before it can create.)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 3,114]

>Have you seen "the brick wall" at the end with a sign on it
>saying "You have reached the end."

Nope, no such wall. The edge of the universe is given by some basic physical constants, primarily the speed of light.

[georgerussia 0]

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Should God send you to heaven or hell?

Should The Great Krishna make you a lion or a cactus in your next reincarnation after you die?
Your answer most likely will be "I do not believe in The Great Krishna".
Then why are you still asking this question from the people who do not believe in God, or do not believe into heaven/hell?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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If you were guilty of rape and murder and standing in front of a judge in a courtroom, should that judge punish you for what you had done? Should he send you to jail?

No way if you truly accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior right there. That's what the Bible teaches us - you could sin, steal and rob your whole life, but if you accept Jesus at the moment you cannot sin anymore, you're still fine, and go to Heaven.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[pajarito 0]

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Science. (However, this depends on the definition of space.)

True. I’ll include Bill’s post in with this one. He said, and I agree in part:

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Nope, no such wall. The edge of the universe is given by some basic physical constants, primarily the speed of light.

We define it based on what we can measure (e.g. speed of light). Just because we can’t fully measure something of that magnitude, however, does not mean that something beyond it doesn’t exist. Logically, it must even if we can’t work it out on paper.

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I said everything that is created has a creator. This does not imply the creator is God.

Fair enough. I was just pokin’ at ya.

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Are you saying that something (God) that was not created, created everything? If so, something (God) is part of everything and thus if something (God) was not created it is impossible for that something (God) to have created everything. (It is also impossible for something (God) to have created itself (God) because something has to be created before it can create.)

No, that is not what I am saying. You just presupposed, and limited God, to being “something” like and even “part of” His creation (use of the word “something” in your first sentence and God merely inserted in parenthesis). He is not. He is eternal. The creation of a Creator is not. Your premise is invalid from the start

[pajarito 0]

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Should The Great Krishna make you a lion or a cactus in your next reincarnation after you die?
Your answer most likely will be "I do not believe in The Great Krishna".
Then why are you still asking this question from the people who do not believe in God, or do not believe into heaven/hell?

Krishna & Rama are two of Vishnu's 10 mythical incarnations. What evidence do you have of any of them? Why should anyone believe in them and what can any of them do for your problem of sin and its penalty?

[georgerussia 0]

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Krishna & Rama are two of Vishnu's 10 mythical incarnations. What evidence do you have of any of them?

I have exactly the same evidence of their existense as you have about Jesus existense - there is NO evidence besides belief.

[eply]
Why should anyone believe in them and what can any of them do for your problem of sin and its penalty?

[Butters 0]

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No, that is not what I am saying. You just presupposed, and limited God, to being “something” like and even “part of” His creation (use of the word “something” in your first sentence and God merely inserted in parenthesis). He is not. He is eternal. The creation of a Creator is not. Your premise is invalid from the start

By definition God is either something or everything (regardless if God is finite or infinite).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pajarito 0]

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If you were guilty of rape and murder and standing in front of a judge in a courtroom, should that judge punish you for what you had done? Should he send you to jail?

No way if you truly accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior right there. That's what the Bible teaches us - you could sin, steal and rob your whole life, but if you accept Jesus at the moment you cannot sin anymore, you're still fine, and go to Heaven.

Repentance (complete turning away from sin) and trust in Jesus Christ “alone” to save you are what is required. It is a free gift of God and not of works. God gets “all” the credit. If that decision is sincere, the person is “born again” which is necessary for salvation. That person is given a new heart with new desires and no longer wishes to sin. That person “will” still sin on occasion because he/she is still human. However, if that person does “fall” (not “dive) into sin, slips off the path, the Father will put him/her back on it. The only “good” that comes from a person who has been saved is because of the Holy Spirit within them. They are not saved and will not go to heaven because they (themselves) are good at heart. They are saved and will go to heaven because they are very, very wicked at heart, fully deserving of punishment, but have been forgiven.

Here’s the kicker, however. If a person has truly been born again (has repented and “received” the forgiveness of Jesus Christ based on what He did for them at the cross), he/she will NOT continue in a pattern of sin. There should be a battle going on. Instead of “floating” down the “river of sin” with most, he/she should be swimming up-current if the Holy Spirit resides within. He resists sin instead of embracing it (1 John 3:9). The fruits of the Sprit should be apparent in their lives. That person should be growing in holiness to be more and more like Christ throughout his/her life. God should be working in them producing love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, etc (Galatians 5:22-23). If that is not so, then they are probably a “false convert” and are not truly a Christian (even if they carry a card around giving the date of when they “prayed a prayer”).

The person you described in your post above sounds more like a hypocrite than a convert. You’re right in that salvation can come at any time when there is sincere repentance and trust in the Savior, however, your scenario sounds fairly unrealistic.

[pajarito 0]

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I have exactly the same evidence of their existense as you have about Jesus existense - there is NO evidence besides belief.

I think most would disagree with you there.

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That should answer your question about going to Hell or Heaven. Why should anyone believe in Jesus if all we have that "proves" His existence is the old book, which is ambiguous, full of mistakes, and has no credibility outside it?

Dude. You should stop using the same old catch phrases and try and come up with some new ones of your own.

[Butters 0]

Any God that sends a person who lived a good life but did not believe to Hell and a person who lived a bad life but did believe to Heaven is a God I would deny regardless of the consequences.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[pajarito 0]

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By definition God is either something or everything (regardless if God is finite or infinite).

No...by definition God "is" (e.g. "I AM.")

[pajarito 0]

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Any God that sends a person who lived a good life but did not believe to Hell and a person who lived a bad life but did believe to Heaven is a God I would deny regardless of the consequences.

Who's "good?" You? By who's standard. I'm quite certain Adolf Hitler thought he was "good" and "just" in killing 6,000,000 Jews. I mean, he even put crosses on the belt buckles of his troops. God must have been on his side. Been through all this before with Beowulf.

[georgerussia 0]

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I can prove God exists too. You just don't accept the proof.

This is typical mistake. Every proof you have is based on the strong assumption that the God exist, and becomes invalid if your opponent does not agree to "let's assume God exist". Techically you have nothing which could be considered "proof", as everything you have is either personal experience (which is not proof), or hearsay (which is not accepted as valid proof anywhere).

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You believe something came from nothing, blew up, and produced an organized everything.

And you believe that something capable to blew up, and produced that organized everything came from nothing. Which is even greater absurd.

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I say God orchestrated the whole thing just like he said he did.

This is what is called hearsay. Were you present at that time? Have you seen it personally?

***
What you "believe" is not as important as what is actually so. Hell is a very long time to know you're wrong.

[Butters 0]

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By definition God is either something or everything (regardless if God is finite or infinite).

No...by definition God "is" something (e.g. "I AM SOMETHING.")

Fixed it for you. God "is" and "I AM" are incomplete sentences.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

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Any God that sends a person who lived a good life but did not believe to Hell and a person who lived a bad life but did believe to Heaven is a God I would deny regardless of the consequences.

Who's "good?" You? By who's standard. I'm quite certain Adolf Hitler thought he was "good" and "just" in killing 6000 Jews. I mean, he even put crosses on the belt buckles of his troops. God must have been on his side. Been through all this before with Beowulf.

By God's standard. Your God judges based on Belief or lack of Belief. My God judges based on Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, etc....

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[georgerussia 0]

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I think most would disagree with you there.

It doesn't matter. The lie does not become truth just because a lot of people agrees with it. Sure, only strong individuals are capable to have different opinion than society around you - but so we are.

And I even have factual evidence: I have a t-shirt with "Free beer to anyone could prove that the God exist", and I wear it frequently. So far nobody claimed free beer, even though some tried.

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Dude. You should stop using the same old catch phrases and try and come up with some new ones of your own.

Well, it is YOUR phrases I am using. So maybe your suggestion should be first directed to yourself :)

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[pajarito 0]

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Fixed it for you. God "is" and "I AM" are incomplete sentences.

Sorry....it was incomplete. He said, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14).

[pajarito 0]

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By God's standard. Your God judges based on Belief or lack of Belief. My God judges based on Good or Bad, Right or Wrong, etc....

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Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness, by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

Guilty?

Also, belief alone will not save anyone.

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You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:19

[georgerussia 0]

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Repentance (complete turning away from sin) and trust in Jesus Christ “alone” to save you are what is required. It is a free gift of God and not of works. God gets “all” the credit. If that decision is sincere, the person is “born again” which is necessary for salvation. That person is given a new heart with new desires and no longer wishes to sin.

So basically what you need to do is to do whatever you want until you are unable to sin anymore. This is a good moment to accept Jesus, and repent - and you'll go to Heaven. Obviously when you cannot sin anymore, you have no desire to do so - that's very typical with older High Morale people who "forgot" their young ages.

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Here’s the kicker, however. If a person has truly been born again (has repented and “received” the forgiveness of Jesus Christ based on what He did for them at the cross), he/she will NOT continue in a pattern of sin.

That's why you should wait until you cannot commit sin anymore, like the person described in the Bible.

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You’re right in that salvation can come at any time when there is sincere repentance and trust in the Savior, however, your scenario sounds fairly unrealistic.

Why is it sound unrealistic? It is obvious that when you cannot sin anymore, it is a really good moment to accept Jesus (and start teaching others how you used your strong will to stop sinning).

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[pajarito 0]

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Why is it sound unrealistic? It is obvious that when you cannot sin anymore, it is a really good moment to accept Jesus (and start teaching others how you used your strong will to stop sinning).

Your will is not strong enough to keep you from sinning and is certainly not strong enough to save you.

Added: I'm out. Be back later.

[DSE 5]

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Should The Great Krishna make you a lion or a cactus in your next reincarnation after you die?
Your answer most likely will be "I do not believe in The Great Krishna".
Then why are you still asking this question from the people who do not believe in God, or do not believe into heaven/hell?

Krishna & Rama are two of Vishnu's 10 mythical incarnations. What evidence do you have of any of them? Why should anyone believe in them and what can any of them do for your problem of sin and its penalty?

Just as much evidence as you offer of your beliefs, except that a greater percentage of the world's population accept it (once you pull Catholics, Mormons, Anglicans out of the Christian mix as you've done in previous posts).
If the popular vote means anything, you lose.

[billvon 3,114]

>Logically, it must even if we can’t work it out on paper.

Uh, no, that's one of those fallacies. "If there is no quantity smaller than zero, one must exist, because the numbers just end there!" Not true just because there's a limit there.

You can surely believe that something exists beyond the edge of the universe, just as you believe God exists in your image of him. But that's belief, not science.

[Royd 0]

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First, nowhere in my culture does it proffer the concept of the Great Spirit being a single deity, that concept is proven to have come post-Euro incursion.
Second, my culture isa polytheistic culture that is *finally* figuring out the damage the bible and it's proponents have brought on our culture and at the moment, it's a confused mess (has been since the late 60's).
Finally, in the Dine' culture specifically, the concept of hozhoo' is personal, not universal.
In other words, although it might cause my family some consternation that I'm of a different opinion than some of them, I also don't find the opinion as being counter to cultural ideals of the past.
That said, you have hit on the exact reason that I've looked for other answers, because Christianity is by far the worse experience to hit *any* indigenous culture around the world, IMO.

Maybe I've just been influenced by watching old westerns, but my impression is that Native Americans recognized that they were just part of an integrated system that depended on everything else for survival. They also seemed to have a great sense of spirituality. Do you prescribe to any of your ancestors belief?