Where did the "dirty bomb" go?

[narcimund 0]

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I'm sure you know that without me telling you.

It's funny to watch you repeatedly make logic errors then when you're corrected you announce that you're the one correcting them for the same error.

Does that technique confuse your professors? Do they give you better grades in their muddle?

"Huh," they say. "Huh, I thought willard made a mistake but he says I made the mistake. I guess I'll just give him an 'A+' and sort it out later."

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[kelpdiver 2]

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I ask you the same question I posed Billvon...
if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? There had to be at least some circumstantial evidence that he was involved or they wouldn't have even known the guy existed.

Why? Because they could, and with the support of scared sheep like you, they can do it for any reason they like - ranging from probable cause to personal dislike.

And that's the similarity to Stalin - you don't believe that the millions of people he had jailed or killed were all enemies of the Soviet Union, do you? He was consolidating his power, pure and simple.

[jakee 1,594]

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Having enough evidence to arrest someone does not mean there is enough to convict. I'm sure you know that without me telling you.

And having enough evidence to arrest sure as fuck doesn't mean that he actually did it. i would say I'm sure you know that, but frankly I'm not.

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I hope you never teach with an attitude like yours.
Oh, wait...you do. Thank God it's not where I take classes.

Yeah, I'm sure Kallend has poisoned many a young mind with his nancy boy liberal interpretations of materials, physics and engineering problems.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[willard 0]

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I ask you the same question I posed Billvon...
if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? There had to be at least some circumstantial evidence that he was involved or they wouldn't have even known the guy existed.

Why? Because they could, and with the support of scared sheep like you, they can do it for any reason they like - ranging from probable cause to personal dislike.

And that's the similarity to Stalin - you don't believe that the millions of people he had jailed or killed were all enemies of the Soviet Union, do you? He was consolidating his power, pure and simple.

I never said there was no similarity. In fact, I said there was. I also said there is a similarity to other situations where people are detained. The accusation was that Gitmo is operated much like Stalin's gulag. That would mean mass executions, etc. If that is NOT what was meant than maybe a better example could have been given?

Who's the scared sheep? I spend my days on a campus that has a very substantial population of people from the middle-east as well as all other areas of the world. Many of them spend their time handling highly dangerous materials and classified information. To me they are just other students, friends, and professors. I'm not afraid of them...are you?

[willard 0]

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I'm sure you know that without me telling you.

It's funny to watch you repeatedly make logic errors then when you're corrected you announce that you're the one correcting them for the same error.

Does that technique confuse your professors? Do they give you better grades in their muddle?

"Huh," they say. "Huh, I thought willard made a mistake but he says I made the mistake. I guess I'll just give him an 'A+' and sort it out later."

WHOOOOOSH! PING!

You are so far off track you lost sight of the station.

[narcimund 0]

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You are so far off track you lost sight of the station.

OooOooOoo... I'm so confused... {wobble}... What's going on here? Willard says he's got it all nailed down and everyone else doesn't get it... It must be so... His strength is all I have left now...

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[willard 0]

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You are so far off track you lost sight of the station.

OooOooOoo... I'm so confused... {wobble}... What's going on here? Willard says he's got it all nailed down and everyone else doesn't get it... It must be so... His strength is all I have left now...

Your childish insults are amusing. If nothing else they do relieve some stress by making me chuckle when i read them.

According to your "logic", the "logic" you use to try to insult me....
If two ideas are not 100% similar, then they MUST be 100% dissimilar.

[narcimund 0]

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According to your "logic", the "logic" you use to try to insult me....
If two ideas are not 100% similar, then they MUST be 100% dissimilar.

I'm going to try to make an instructive point in big bold words but it's going to be lost anyway. Oh well, here we go:

I WAS ILLUSTRATING YOUR ERROR.

THAT 'FAKE' LOGIC LESSON WAS ILLUSTRATING WHAT YOU HAD DONE!

I'M QUITE AWARE THAT IT WAS BULLSHIT.

I WAS MAKING FUN OF YOU!

You may now proceed to misunderstand.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[willard 0]

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According to your "logic", the "logic" you use to try to insult me....
If two ideas are not 100% similar, then they MUST be 100% dissimilar.

I'm going to try to make an instructive point in big bold words but it's going to be lost anyway. Oh well, here we go:

I WAS ILLUSTRATING YOUR ERROR.

THAT 'FAKE' LOGIC LESSON WAS ILLUSTRATING WHAT YOU HAD DONE!

I'M QUITE AWARE THAT IT WAS BULLSHIT.

I WAS MAKING FUN OF YOU!

You may now proceed to misunderstand.

Don't make fun of me. It hurts my feelings. I'm very sensitive you know.


BTW, I'm surprised (and a little disappointed) that nobody has yet to answer the question I posted concerning situations A & B. I pretty much gave free reign for anyone to rip on me without repercussion. Very strange.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Who's the scared sheep? I spend my days on a campus that has a very substantial population of people from the middle-east as well as all other areas of the world. Many of them spend their time handling highly dangerous materials and classified information. To me they are just other students, friends, and professors. I'm not afraid of them...are you?

Bullshit - you definitely are scared of them. So scared you're willing to remove their constitutional protections because you think they might commit a crime against our country.

Non citizens - you might have some leg to stand on here - the Constitution doesn't give them the same rights. But when you try to say that for the greater good it's fine that some people are jailed for years without trial, it's clear you're afraid. Or have no respect for American ideals.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Japanese-Americans were wrogfully kept in interment camps during WWII, no argument there. Same with the "suspected communists" in the 50s.
However, there is no comparison between them and Padilla. Padilla DID spend years overseas, much of that time traing in terrorist methods.

Some of those Japanese certainly were spies. (The damning part is that only the non White Axis ethnic groups were jailed) Same for the commies. Who easier for the KGB to recruit?

I don't see how you can see those times as wrongful behavior, but now as prudent actions by the government. There's absolutely no difference between them.

[billvon 3,111]

Could everyone please stop with the sniping? If you must call each other names, please do so on rec.skydiving, not here.

[willard 0]

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Who's the scared sheep? I spend my days on a campus that has a very substantial population of people from the middle-east as well as all other areas of the world. Many of them spend their time handling highly dangerous materials and classified information. To me they are just other students, friends, and professors. I'm not afraid of them...are you?

Bullshit - you definitely are scared of them. So scared you're willing to remove their constitutional protections because you think they might commit a crime against our country.

Non citizens - you might have some leg to stand on here - the Constitution doesn't give them the same rights. But when you try to say that for the greater good it's fine that some people are jailed for years without trial, it's clear you're afraid. Or have no respect for American ideals.

Yeah, your right. I am so scared of them I keep them as friends so I can keep watch over them.
Nice of you to tell me how I feel, though.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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ask you the same question I posed Billvon...
if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested?

There is due process in place that is supposed t prevent people from being arrested and detained without evidence. The US specifically circumvented those laws and rules and in 5 years never had te show any form of evidence.

Why do you think they did that? if they had evidence, why not process him like every other american citizen is supposed to be processed?

Assuming that there must be solid evidence because he was arrested is not only naive, but scary. The rules, laws and regulations for due process are in place because all throughout history (and even right in the US itself) people have been jailed for political gain or general fear.

So I ask you, why would the US government hold a US citizen and completely disregard due process. History has shown only one possible answer to that question. Why do you think this time it is all different?

[willard 0]

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ask you the same question I posed Billvon...
if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested?

There is due process in place that is supposed t prevent people from being arrested and detained without evidence. The US specifically circumvented those laws and rules and in 5 years never had te show any form of evidence.

Why do you think they did that? if they had evidence, why not process him like every other american citizen is supposed to be processed?

Assuming that there must be solid evidence because he was arrested is not only naive, but scary. The rules, laws and regulations for due process are in place because all throughout history (and even right in the US itself) people have been jailed for political gain or general fear.

So I ask you, why would the US government hold a US citizen and completely disregard due process. History has shown only one possible answer to that question. Why do you think this time it is all different?

I'm dumb. Do me the favor of telling me, if there is no evidence Padilla was conspiring to do bad things,why has been held all this time?

[Frenchy68 0]

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I'm dumb. Do me the favor of telling me, if there is no evidence Padilla was conspiring to do bad things,why has been held all this time?

I don't think too many people are refuting the possibility that the government has evidences he was up to something. The issue is more about the fact that due process was not followed. The danger is to have our executive branch take over the judicial. It is not up to the government to decide whether one is guilty or not of something. It is up to the government to assemble evidences, arrest the suspect, charge him and turn him over to the judicial system. 5 years between step 2 and step 3 is highly alarming to say the least.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[willard 0]

The whole of the debate can pretty much be summed up from things you mentioned.
I think it can be assumed that there is some eveidence of some kind somewhere. What it is, how solid, and how easily obtained is not known to any of us here in the forum. After all, if there was no evidence whatsoever then the gov. would have no interest at all in him. So that leaves one major point of disagreement, that being whether the evidence available is enough to warrant his being held. My opinion is that, due to the circumstances and the seriousness of the acts he is purported to have been planning, he should be held until a complete and thurough investigation was complete. If that meant classifying him as an enemy combatant to avoid having to release him then so be it. Others here feel differently, and that is their right. Unfortunately there was one who felt it neccessary to resort to name calling because my viewpoint didn't mirror his.

[billvon 3,111]

> if there is no evidence Padilla was conspiring to do bad things,why
> has been held all this time?

People were afraid of him. They used reasons like "he would have killed us all with a dirty bomb" and "I feel no sorrow for the guy and am glad he has been kept off the streets." In other words, people like you had their way.

[jakee 1,594]

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I'm dumb. Do me the favor of telling me, if there is no evidence Padilla was conspiring to do bad things,why has been held all this time?

There were "terrorists" held in Gitmo for years who were eventually released without charge. If they were innocent how come they were there for so long?

Or in willard world were they definitely guilty just because they were arrested?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[willard 0]

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I'm dumb. Do me the favor of telling me, if there is no evidence Padilla was conspiring to do bad things,why has been held all this time?

There were "terrorists" held in Gitmo for years who were eventually released without charge. If they were innocent how come they were there for so long?

Or in willard world were they definitely guilty just because they were arrested?

As opposed to Jakee-world where everyone walks around with flowers in their hair, nobody hurts anyone else, and love & peaceful tranquility rule the land.
Yeah, right.

In case you haven't heard there is a war on terror. Maybe you don't like that, I don't care. Deal with it how you see fit. In wars people get taken prisoner. In the past they have been called POWs, this time they are called "enemy combatants". Maybe you don't like that, I don't care. Deal with it how you see fit. Maybe you would have prefered those people had been shot dead instead of held at Gitmo? Yeah, that's probably it.

[willard 0]

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> if there is no evidence Padilla was conspiring to do bad things,why
> has been held all this time?

People were afraid of him. They used reasons like "he would have killed us all with a dirty bomb" and "I feel no sorrow for the guy and am glad he has been kept off the streets." In other words, people like you had their way.

Good enough for me. Don't like my opinion? Tough.

[jakee 1,594]

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As opposed to Jakee-world where everyone walks around with flowers in their hair, nobody hurts anyone else, and love & peaceful tranquility rule the land.
Yeah, right.

Bull-fucking-shit.

I'm not trying to change the world here. I'm just curious as to how you know that Padilla was guilty of the most serious offence for which he was arrested even though he hasn't even been charged with it, let alone convicted.

You seem to think that merely being arrested for a terror offense is enough to guarantee guilt. So I'm asking the question, are the people released without charge from Gitmo after years of imprisonment guilty or innocent?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[willard 0]

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As opposed to Jakee-world where everyone walks around with flowers in their hair, nobody hurts anyone else, and love & peaceful tranquility rule the land.
Yeah, right.

Bull-fucking-shit.

I'm not trying to change the world here. I'm just curious as to how you know that Padilla was guilty of the most serious offence for which he was arrested even though he hasn't even been charged with it, let alone convicted.

You seem to think that merely being arrested for a terror offense is enough to guarantee guilt. So I'm asking the question, are the people released without charge from Gitmo after years of imprisonment guilty or innocent?

How do you know he wasn't? The Gov'ment had cause to pick him up, the reasons have been addressed many times here. Go back and read. As to your other question, read my last reply. It's a war. Shit happens. And I have no trouble sleeping at night.

[jakee 1,594]

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How do you know he wasn't?

I've never said that I know he wasn't.

All through this discussion I have been questioning your assertion that you know that Padilla did plot to plant a dirty bomb. An assertion you have not retracted even though you have no idea what evidence (or lack of) there is against him, and an assertion that you have supported by saying "but he was arrested, he must be guilty!!"

You are hanging on to a completely untenable position. There is simply no way that you can assert that Padilla is guilty, and asserting that you know he was guilty because he was arrested is naive in the extreme.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,146]

Why don't you spell out for us in detail the conditions under which you think it OK for the government to rape the Constitution? It would save a lot of bickering.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.