Where did the "dirty bomb" go?

[billvon 3,112]

>it was and would be perfectly appropriate to jail indefinitely any
>members of the communist party.

Well, any _suspected_ members of the communist party.

[willard 0]

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By your standards, it was and would be perfectly appropriate to jail indefinitely any members of the communist party

If they had a similar history as Padilla then yes.

[billvon 3,112]

>If they had a similar history as Padilla then yes.

During the 60's, replace "Al Qaeda" with "communist" and you had exactly the same sort of fear - a fear that leads one to abuse the constitution to make one feel safer.

During the 40's, replace "Al Qaeda" with "Japanese" and you had the same willingness to consider some people subhuman - and not deserving of rights that the "real" americans have.

You would think we would learn the lessons of history. But it seems like we have to re-learn them with every generation. Perhaps someday we will, as a people, outgrow this sort of willful ignorance. Or perhaps we need a modern-day Joseph Welch to end this particular period of fear. I hope we find him.

[willard 0]

Japanese-Americans were wrogfully kept in interment camps during WWII, no argument there. Same with the "suspected communists" in the 50s.
However, there is no comparison between them and Padilla. Padilla DID spend years overseas, much of that time traing in terrorist methods. Padilla DID conspire with known terrorists to build and detonate a "dirty bomb" here in the U.S. Why didn't the govenment immediattly charge and prosecute him? I don't have the answer to that question. I'm just glad they took him into custody before he could follow through with his plans.

[jakee 1,594]

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Padilla DID conspire with known terrorists to build and detonate a "dirty bomb" here in the U.S.

Can you prove that? The government obviously don't think they can.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[willard 0]

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Padilla DID conspire with known terrorists to build and detonate a "dirty bomb" here in the U.S.

Can you prove that? The government obviously don't think they can.

What makes you think they won't? The initial charges the government had against Padilla have not been forgotten about, they just aren't part of the case he is on trial for right now.

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..was held for three-and-a-half years at a Navy brig as an enemy combatant, but those allegations are not part of the Miami case.

[jakee 1,594]

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What makes you think they won't?

Because they have had 5 whole years to build a dirty bomb case against him. Because it is very embarrassing for the government that he is not being charged for that crime. Because being able to try and convict him on dirty bomb charges right now would do a lot to vindicate their unconstitutional treatment of him.

Show me the documents that prove Padilla plotted to plant a dirty bomb. You like documents, right?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[willard 0]

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What makes you think they won't?

Because they have had 5 whole years to build a dirty bomb case against him. Because it is very embarrassing for the government that he is not being charged for that crime. Because being able to try and convict him on dirty bomb charges right now would do a lot to vindicate their unconstitutional treatment of him.

Show me the documents that prove Padilla plotted to plant a dirty bomb. You like documents, right?

That's an aweful lot of speculation as to why he has yet to stand trial on those charges.
Yeah, I like documents. But I will admit that I don't have access to the ones proving his guilt. I, unlike you, have at least a moderate amount of faith in our government and trust that they have enough evidence to prove those charges. Why would they waste their time and resources, let alone undergo the public scrutiny involved, to arrest and hold someone who they had absolutely no evidence against? Call me naive, I know you will, but that's ok. I have the comfort of knowing Padilla's little bomb never got built and used.

[jakee 1,594]

So in other words, you have absolutely no idea what evidence of any kind the US has against Padilla, but you know that he did try and build a dirty bomb? Even though he is not even being charged with trying to build a dirty bomb. Riiiight.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 2,147]

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What makes you think they won't?

Because they have had 5 whole years to build a dirty bomb case against him. Because it is very embarrassing for the government that he is not being charged for that crime. Because being able to try and convict him on dirty bomb charges right now would do a lot to vindicate their unconstitutional treatment of him.

Show me the documents that prove Padilla plotted to plant a dirty bomb. You like documents, right?

That's an aweful lot of speculation as to why he has yet to stand trial on those charges.
Yeah, I like documents. But I will admit that I don't have access to the ones proving his guilt. I, unlike you, have at least a moderate amount of faith in our government and trust that they have enough evidence to prove those charges. Why would they waste their time and resources, let alone undergo the public scrutiny involved, to arrest and hold someone who they had absolutely no evidence against? Call me naive, I know you will, but that's ok. I have the comfort of knowing Padilla's little bomb never got built and used.

Stalin used to think that way. His gulag was a bit colder than Guantanamo, but operated much the same way.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[willard 0]

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What makes you think they won't?

Because they have had 5 whole years to build a dirty bomb case against him. Because it is very embarrassing for the government that he is not being charged for that crime. Because being able to try and convict him on dirty bomb charges right now would do a lot to vindicate their unconstitutional treatment of him.

Show me the documents that prove Padilla plotted to plant a dirty bomb. You like documents, right?

That's an aweful lot of speculation as to why he has yet to stand trial on those charges.
Yeah, I like documents. But I will admit that I don't have access to the ones proving his guilt. I, unlike you, have at least a moderate amount of faith in our government and trust that they have enough evidence to prove those charges. Why would they waste their time and resources, let alone undergo the public scrutiny involved, to arrest and hold someone who they had absolutely no evidence against? Call me naive, I know you will, but that's ok. I have the comfort of knowing Padilla's little bomb never got built and used.

Stalin used to think that way. His gulag was a bit colder than Guantanamo, but operated much the same way.

Oh really? They are executing prisoners by the thousands at Gitmo? There are taking prisoners from there and using them in slave labor camps, working them until they drop dead?
We may not see eye-to-eye on much, Kallend, but even you should see that Guantanamo Bay and Stain's gulag are not comparable in any way, shape, or form.

[willard 0]

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So in other words, you have absolutely no idea what evidence of any kind the US has against Padilla, but you know that he did try and build a dirty bomb? Even though he is not even being charged with trying to build a dirty bomb. Riiiight.

I wouldn't say "no idea". Obviously they have some evidence or they would not have picked him up, right? Unless you think they just grabbed him at random from the airport.
U.S. agencies watching terrorist activities noticed him, checked him out, saw what he had been doing, investigated further and decided he was a serious threat to national security. That is the type of evidence I would expect the gov. to have on him.
As I said before, why they haven't tried him on those charges yet is a question I don't have an answer for.
You are expecting me to say I was wrong, that Padilla should have been let go or not arrested at all. But that's not going to happen. I feel the government has done the right thing and I will not apologize for feeling that way. You are free to disagree with me.

[narcimund 0]

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Oh really? They are executing prisoners by the thousands at Gitmo? There are taking prisoners from there and using them in slave labor camps, working them until they drop dead?
We may not see eye-to-eye on much, Kallend, but even you should see that Guantanamo Bay and Stain's gulag are not comparable in any way, shape, or form.

INTRO LOGIC DEMONSTRATION #1:

Kallend: "Here's a similarity between A and B."

Willard: "There's no similarity. I'll prove it by showing a difference!"

And this concludes our lesson in introductory logic.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[jakee 1,594]

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You are expecting me to say I was wrong, that Padilla should have been let go or not arrested at all.

Actually no. I do think it is likely that Padilla did something wrong - namely the things he has been charged with. So far no one has been shown even a shred of solid evidence that there was ever a dirty bomb plot.

Do you still believe that Saddam had an active program producing WMD's before the invasion? Do you still believe that all the prisoners released without charges from Gitmo after so many years must have been held there for a reason?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,112]

>Padilla DID spend years overseas, much of that time traing in
>terrorist methods. Padilla DID conspire with known terrorists to build and
>detonate a "dirty bomb" here in the U.S.

Right. And during WWII and the McCarthy era, they had the same sort of trumped-up charges leveled against suspected communists and Japanese.

>Why didn't the govenment immediattly charge and prosecute him?

Because they had no evidence.

>I don't have the answer to that question. I'm just glad they took him into
>custody before he could follow through with his plans.

We should not let our fear blind us to what we value as a society. The decisions we make based on fear are the ones we regret later (as during WWII and the McCarthy era.)

[willard 0]

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Oh really? They are executing prisoners by the thousands at Gitmo? There are taking prisoners from there and using them in slave labor camps, working them until they drop dead?
We may not see eye-to-eye on much, Kallend, but even you should see that Guantanamo Bay and Stain's gulag are not comparable in any way, shape, or form.

INTRO LOGIC DEMONSTRATION #1:

Kallend: "Here's a similarity between A and B."

Willard: "There's no similarity. I'll prove it by showing a difference!"

And this concludes our lesson in introductory logic.

Wrong.

Kallends claim was that Stanin's gulag and Gitmo are run pretty much the same way.
I showed that they are not, that there are fundamental differences, therefor they are NOT run pretty much the same way.
Kallend is wrong on that point, but I don't expect an admission.
Sure there are similarities. There are similarities between Stalin's gulag and the local dog shelter, the local police station, the detention room at the local high school. Doesn't mean they can be said the be run the same way. (of course I may be wrong. Does your high scholl principal execute people for cursing at him?)
Your attempt at logic is off track.

[willard 0]

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>Padilla DID spend years overseas, much of that time traing in
>terrorist methods. Padilla DID conspire with known terrorists to build and
>detonate a "dirty bomb" here in the U.S.

Right. And during WWII and the McCarthy era, they had the same sort of trumped-up charges leveled against suspected communists and Japanese.

>Why didn't the govenment immediattly charge and prosecute him?

Because they had no evidence.

>I don't have the answer to that question. I'm just glad they took him into
>custody before he could follow through with his plans.

We should not let our fear blind us to what we value as a society. The decisions we make based on fear are the ones we regret later (as during WWII and the McCarthy era.)

Seems we have made a circle in our discussion.

"Because they had no evidence."

Then why did they arrest him?

[willard 0]

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You are expecting me to say I was wrong, that Padilla should have been let go or not arrested at all.

Actually no. I do think it is likely that Padilla did something wrong - namely the things he has been charged with. So far no one has been shown even a shred of solid evidence that there was ever a dirty bomb plot.

Do you still believe that Saddam had an active program producing WMD's before the invasion? Do you still believe that all the prisoners released without charges from Gitmo after so many years must have been held there for a reason?

I ask you the same question I posed Billvon...
if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? There had to be at least some circumstantial evidence that he was involved or they wouldn't have even known the guy existed.

[narcimund 0]

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Your attempt at logic is off track.

WHOOOSH....

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[willard 0]

Situation "A".

People with known terrorist affiliations are known to be living in the U.S. Some of them are taking flying lessons, but seem to have liitle interest in small planes, only how to fly commercial airliners. Others are taking trips across the country for no apparrent reason. The agencies watching them are highly suspicious that a plot is underway against the U.S., but have no evidence other than their observations. They decide not to take the men into custody. These men later kill almost 3000 people in a terrorist attack.

Situation "B"

A man with known terrorist ties has just returned to the U.S. from an extended stay overseas where he underwent training at a terrorist camp (there is proof of that). He is known to be in frequent contact with terrorists who are suspected of planning to build a "dirty bomb". The man is taken into custody and held without formal charges.


If you HAD to choose between situation "A" and situation "B", which would you choose and why?

My choice (no surprise to anyone following this thread) is situation "B". Better to violate one man's rights and save thousands.

This question is posed not as debate but as a way to show your opinion. I will not disect anyones reply on this question so have at it.

[willard 0]

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Your attempt at logic is off track.

WHOOOSH....

Must have been past your head. You must have read that "logic" from a text book. You do realize your comparison was off track, right? Maybe you need more time to think about it.

[jakee 1,594]

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I ask you the same question I posed Billvon...
if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? There had to be at least some circumstantial evidence that he was involved or they wouldn't have even known the guy existed.

No evidence? I never said there was no evidence. I said that no one has been shown any evidence. There very well may be some circumstantial evidence - however the standards of evidence needed for an arrest are nothing at all like the standards of evidence needed to to charge someone, or to be able to say "I know he did it".

Are you seriously going to argue that everyone arrested for a crime is guilty? Are you going to say that all the enemy combatants held in Gitmo for several years before being released without charges were guilty also?




(Honestly, I can't even believe that you are saying that because there was enough suspicion to arrest someone that he must be guilty.)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,112]

>Then why did they arrest him?

Same reason we jailed all those japanese in the 40's. Fear. Just say the word "dirty bomb" and "muslim" and people will be practically wetting their pants. Of COURSE he should be in jail!

[kallend 2,147]

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if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? .

I hope you never serve on a jury with an attitude like that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[willard 0]

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if there was no evidence, then why was he arrested? .

I hope you never serve on a jury with an attitude like that.

Having enough evidence to arrest someone does not mean there is enough to convict. I'm sure you know that without me telling you.

I hope you never teach with an attitude like yours.
Oh, wait...you do. Thank God it's not where I take classes.