Gotta love those extremist cultures that stone people.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

> All you hear around SF is how wrong it is for us to make judgements
>about these other cultures . . .

You did exactly the same thing. "I'm sure somewhere in between is a point where it might be cultural." So you think that in some cases you SHOULD accept what another culture does instead of imposing your judgements on it.

Are you fucking with me, today? It's like you're an ESL person today, ignoring words that have obvious meaning.

'In some cases' is not the same as 'in no cases'. That's the difference.

Some countries strongly disapprove of public nudity. Others do not. That's a perfectly fair cultural difference.

The Taliban don't allow women to attend school, be seen in public without male escort, and without the burqa. And much more. Death can be a punishment for breaking those rules. I feel no guilt over saying the Taliban culture is shit.

So stop dealing in vagueness and making a point already.

[Scoop 0]

Its noones responsibility to police the world unless we are talking major atrocities.

What you perceive to be extreme isn't neccesarily elsewhere.

Tribes all round the world will still kill people for being involved in witchcraft. Even members of their own family. As scientifically educated communities we don't understand this but to a culture that revolves around strict religious practices this is what happens.

I believe its incorrect to criticise people for their actions when its all they know and is standard practice in their country AND THEY ARE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

Obviouslly there is a line to be drawn somewhere, for example (and a serious one) genocide which would require some sort of international intervention

[Guest]

Quote

I believe its incorrect to criticise people for their actions when its all they know and is standard practice in their country AND THEY ARE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

Then they shouldn't have a hand out asking for food aid from societies that are better (and far better off) than theirs.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

Quote

> All you hear around SF is how wrong it is for us to make judgements
>about these other cultures . . .

You did exactly the same thing. "I'm sure somewhere in between is a point where it might be cultural." So you think that in some cases you SHOULD accept what another culture does instead of imposing your judgements on it.

Bill, please explain what is wrong with tying aid to political and social reform? Don't taxpayers who provide that aid deserve the right to say how the money should be spent?

Consider welfare in the USA, and the San Francisco example that was remarked upon in another thread. Is it wrong to tell welfare recipients how they will spend the money? Those Third World countries are welfare recipients. Why can't the same rules apply? Please don't answer that it is an issue of sovereignity, because in my opinion, those countries forfeited sovereignity when they asked for aid.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,120]

>Bill, please explain what is wrong with tying aid to political and
>social reform? Don't taxpayers who provide that aid deserve the right to
>say how the money should be spent?

Yes, they do. Which is why I'd support credits that can only be used for food, clothing and housing.

>Please don't answer that it is an issue of sovereignity, because in my
>opinion, those countries forfeited sovereignity when they asked for aid.

Is it really your opinion that countries who request aid are not sovereign countries?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I believe its incorrect to criticise people for their actions when its all they know and is standard practice in their country AND THEY ARE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

Obviouslly there is a line to be drawn somewhere, for example (and a serious one) genocide which would require some sort of international intervention

See, Bill. Scoop's line is about as far over as it can be. Only when mass genocide is occuring should outsiders be able to make value judgements.

Fortunately most people consider that line the wrong place. I will criticize other cultures whenever I feel it proper. They are entitled to do the same about the US (ie, guns). The only requirement is to have knowledge on the subject.

[billvon 3,120]

>Only when mass genocide is occuring should outsiders be able to
>make value judgements.

I would say that "only when mass genocide is occurring should outsiders be able to interfere." In other words, it's OK that Mexico doesn't like that we execute people in Texas - but we'd be pretty pissed if they invaded to stop it.

We expect other countries to respect our cultures/laws; we should practice what we preach. Doesn't mean you have to be OK with government executions, or wife-beating, or people having to wear veils or tops or turbans. Criticism is fine - it's taking another country's laws into your own hands that causes problems.

[Beerlight 0]

Iraq is a boil on the world's ass.

I wish I could sit quietly taking care of my own needs and those of my family and never have a thought about the Middle East.

[Scoop 0]

Quote

See, Bill. Scoop's line is about as far over as it can be. Only when mass genocide is occuring should outsiders be able to make value judgements.

Fortunately most people consider that line the wrong place. I will criticize other cultures whenever I feel it proper. They are entitled to do the same about the US (ie, guns). The only requirement is to have knowledge on the subject.

Who the fuck are you and your bully boy country to think its their responsibility to make people live their lives they way you live yours? Unless something is way out of line keep your nose out of other countries affairs. Its no wonder you're (America) not popular amongst LEDCs (I suppose us too). Someday some crazy country will stand up to you and give you a wake up call, hence the reason you're so shit scared about any other country getting their hands on nuclear weapons. You got such a big country with enough of your own problems to fix, concentrate on that before you try to save the world. Same goes for us too.

As Beerlight says. I'm sure people would rather just live their lives and not worry about crap thats going on elsewhere unless it demands a response.

I do have to question why nothing was done or is being done in places like Zimbabwe though?

[billvon 3,120]

Your one warning.

[Scoop 0]

Quote

Your one warning.

For what?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

>Only when mass genocide is occuring should outsiders be able to
>make value judgements.

I would say that "only when mass genocide is occurring should outsiders be able to interfere." In other words, it's OK that Mexico doesn't like that we execute people in Texas - but we'd be pretty pissed if they invaded to stop it.

[Scoop - notice the distinction between criticism and interference.]

As far as sending in troops, that's probably on target, Bill. But I think you can fairly take other measures (economic sanctions like no aid, restriction of trade) for lower crimes against ones own people.

[Guest]

Quote

>Bill, please explain what is wrong with tying aid to political and
>social reform? Don't taxpayers who provide that aid deserve the right to
>say how the money should be spent?

Yes, they do. Which is why I'd support credits that can only be used for food, clothing and housing.

>Please don't answer that it is an issue of sovereignity, because in my
>opinion, those countries forfeited sovereignity when they asked for aid.

Is it really your opinion that countries who request aid are not sovereign countries?

Not at all. Poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say was that given all the corruption in the Third World, and how little of the aid actually reaches the people who need it if the locals are in charge, the assistance should be managed by those who provide it, or else, no assistance.

Naturally, the corrupt officials in those Third World cesspools will let their people starve instead, but then that's not our problem or our fault.

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[78RATS 0]

what the hell are ya'll talking about. a mob of losers killed a helpless chick with rocks.

That is about as [bendy finger gesture] wrong as it can get.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[billvon 3,120]

>the assistance should be managed by those who provide it, or else, no assistance.

Costs too much. You really want the US to pay for middle managers in Nigeria to hire local trucking companies to transport food?

Send them aid and tell them what they have to use it for. If they don't follow the rules, then stop sending them aid.

[Guest]

Quote

>the assistance should be managed by those who provide it, or else, no assistance.

Costs too much. You really want the US to pay for middle managers in Nigeria to hire local trucking companies to transport food?

Send them aid and tell them what they have to use it for. If they don't follow the rules, then stop sending them aid.

But Bill, that means people will starve! Where's the compassion in that?

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[TypicalFish 0]

Quote

I wish I could sit quietly taking care of my own needs and those of my family and never have a thought about the Middle East.

I opened up DZ.com today and this was the first post I read. It really struck me as right on point. Wow.

Edited to add: In the sense of all the rhetoric, not in reference to this particular incident. There is nothing but evil in what happened to that poor girl.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET