Gotta love those extremist cultures that stone people.

[jakee 1,596]

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I believe this is an analogy for "neighbors" who are also nations. I dislike military intervention in general, but where people who pose no threat to others are slaughtered, other nations need to intervene.

Whoah there cowboy, remember that this was a mob, not a legal action.

Should Mexico have invaded Texas back in the ol' nigger-lynching days?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,120]

> I'm not sure, but I THINK you are agreeing with him!

I am basically agreeing with him. It does happen from time to time here you know!

[ryoder 1,590]

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>Do you not intervene because of their culture?

You intervene because they are, in fact, in the US, and subject to our laws.

Yes, but I was using that as an analogy for what followed.

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Counterexample. You are in the UK, and a young boy is being beaten by his teacher. Do you intervene?

My definition of "beating" is a physical assault intended to cause injury. If that is what I saw, yes. If it was just a spanking, no.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 3,120]

>My definition of "beating" is a physical assault intended to cause injury.
>If that is what I saw, yes. If it was just a spanking, no.

I think you have something of an obligation to respect the laws (and social mores) of the culture you are living in. Just as you'd expect a foreigner to not beat his wife when he is in the US, you should respect the laws/mores of the society you're in - even if they bug you. If they bug you a lot, of course, it would be a good idea to avoid that place.

[Stumpy 284]

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> I'm not sure, but I THINK you are agreeing with him!

I am basically agreeing with him. It does happen from time to time here you know!

Wow - i don't think i ever saw that before

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[ryoder 1,590]

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>My definition of "beating" is a physical assault intended to cause injury.
>If that is what I saw, yes. If it was just a spanking, no.

I think you have something of an obligation to respect the laws (and social mores) of the culture you are living in. Just as you'd expect a foreigner to not beat his wife when he is in the US, you should respect the laws/mores of the society you're in - even if they bug you. If they bug you a lot, of course, it would be a good idea to avoid that place.

If I see someone trying to harm a child, I'll intervene. Having grown up as the victim of physical abuse from an irrational SOB of a father, I can't compromise on this.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 3,120]

>If I see someone trying to harm a child, I'll intervene.

It might be wise to be careful which countries you visit, then.

[mnealtx 0]

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Says our legal systems but many cultures throughout the world would differ with us. Whos right huh? If its not in our country its not for us to say really and its wrong to force/enforce our ways on other cultures

Culture difference bullshit.

Who were they to say that girl couldn't live her life the way she wanted to? Who were they to kill her because she didn't live up to their ludicrous standards of female behaviour?

This kind of thing cannot be tolerated in any modern society.

And there is our winner, folks...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Guest]

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That girl died for the sins of liberals.

Completely 180 degrees twisted.

That girl died because her culture isn't LIBERAL ENOUGH!

Ya know, it looks like everybody missed my point. Guess I wasn't explicit enough.

Ever see the pity-party infomercials starring the emaciated, swollen-bellied little African kids with flies in their eyes because they're too weak to swat them away?

Every time people in the West help them by sending food, medicine, etc. it decreases their death rate, increases their population, and guess what - there are MORE OF THEM, and the problem is now worse.

The point I was trying to make is that bleeding-heart liberals want to send all kinds of economic and medical assistance to these people in third-world cesspools, but refuse to do anything about the CULTURE that caused the problems in the first place (overfarming, subsistence farming, gross mismanagement of agricultural resources; e.g., Zimbabwe), but if we try to change their society by introducing Western concepts, we are somehow [fingers bending gesture] "corrupting" or [fingers bending gesture] "interfering" with their so-called society.

Isn't any kind of assistance a form of interference? Why not just be laissez-faire about it all, and let Darwin decide?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,120]

>Every time people in the West help them by sending food, medicine, etc. it
>decreases their death rate, increases their population, and guess what -
>there are MORE OF THEM, and the problem is now worse.

Yep. It's not ideal. At most it's better than the alternative.

>but if we try to change their society by introducing Western concepts,
>we are somehow [fingers bending gesture] "corrupting" or [fingers bending
>gesture] "interfering" with their so-called society.

Ever been there? I think if you had been you'd be able to speak about it a lot more intelligently. Some of those "little african kids with flies in their eyes" are better educated than most americans - and think our society is amusing but bizarre.

>Isn't any kind of assistance a form of interference? Why not just
>be laissez-faire about it all, and let Darwin decide?

Because most people feel compassion for others who are less fortunate.

[jakee 1,596]

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The point I was trying to make is that bleeding-heart liberals want to send all kinds of economic and medical assistance to these people in third-world cesspools, but refuse to do anything about the CULTURE that caused the problems in the first place (overfarming, subsistence farming, gross mismanagement of agricultural resources; e.g., Zimbabwe), but if we try to change their society by introducing Western concepts, we are somehow [fingers bending gesture] "corrupting" or [fingers bending gesture] "interfering" with their so-called society.

Zimbabwe's leaders have been under economic sanctions for years. Zimbabwe's situation is not even remotely similar to Northern Iraq.

And if you're going to try and say that your original post "liberals want to bring that (Kurdish) culture to my country" had anything to do with the percieved mismanagement of financial aid to Africa, well, lets just say it won't do wonders for your credibility.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Guest]

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Some of those "little african kids with flies in their eyes" are better educated than most americans - and think our society is amusing but bizarre.

I agree with their observation of our society; however, it begs the question: if they're so smart, why can't they even feed themselves?

And which is more compassionate? To make them take care of themselves, or "help" them and make a bad situation even worse?

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,120]

>I agree with their observation of our society; however, it begs the
>question: if they're so smart, why can't they even feed themselves?

Most of them can - you just don't read about them. The ones that can't are generally due to violence and environmental problems (deforestation, drought.) Also due to the inevitable friction between civilizations. I didn't see any starving/poverty-stricken people out in the bush; they were about as happy as they come. But the closer you go to the (largely white) cities the more you saw the sort of grinding poverty you see on TV.

The people in the bush have no one to tell them they are poor starving wretches, so they're not.

>And which is more compassionate? To make them take care of
>themselves, or "help" them and make a bad situation even worse?

I think they'd accept that about as much as you'd accept a foreigner "making you" give up your guns. For your own good of course.

But offering to help them take care of themselves? While I was there that was the only sort of aid I saw. White people trying to show them how to switch from wood to adobe (more plentiful, less deforestation) how to irrigate (to grow during the dry season) etc. They thought it was really nice of us to try, but they had been living the same way for 10,000 years and were pretty happy with how their lives were going.

[nigel99 619]

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The point I was trying to make is that bleeding-heart liberals want to send all kinds of economic and medical assistance to these people in third-world cesspools, but refuse to do anything about the CULTURE that caused the problems in the first place (overfarming, subsistence farming, gross mismanagement of agricultural resources; e.g., Zimbabwe), but if we try to change their society by introducing Western concepts, we are somehow [fingers bending gesture] "corrupting" or [fingers bending gesture] "interfering" with their so-called society.

You are absolutely right on with this - but it is more than just liberals. In Africa they take great pride in sticking it to the west regarding corruption/democracy and yet come begging for handouts. The handouts are "skimmed" so that corrupt a*holes still reap the rewards of OUR taxes. The answer to Africa is that it can only be dealt with in 2 ways effectively:

1) Stop ALL aid and let nature take its course - when people starve to death and politicians run out of things to steal they will wake up and do things properly.

2) Reinstate colonial rule. For example the british went to Zimbabwe (Rhodesia in 1890) and by the early 1930's it had a thriving economy, which continued to grow until 1970(ish) and the start of the "liberation" struggle. It took 30 years to destroy things to take the country back to pre 1900 levels And South Africa WILL be no different the signs are on the wall and Mbeki is just as twisted.

A final rant is that you can't "introduce" democracy in the way that it has been tried, bloody hell has nobody learn't - how many "democracies" have been born out of granting colonies majority rule? Exluding the USA and Australia who basically used ethnic cleansing to remove the local population (not in recent history of course) I can't think of any? Telling people who for the past 1000 years have obeyed the "chief" or risked death, that they have the right to oust him in an election doesn't work - culturally they can't comprehend what it means. Hell 1/2 those people will never challenge someone who is older than them due to "respect". Qualified majority voting is a good option - probably even for the west where we can tip the scales against the uneducated masses living off state handouts.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[jakee 1,596]

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how many "democracies" have been born out of granting colonies majority rule? Exluding the USA and Australia who basically used ethnic cleansing to remove the local population (not in recent history of course) I can't think of any?

Well I did hear about one country on the south coast of Asia. Really big place, was liberated by a skinny little fella with glasses - now what the hell was it called?

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Telling people who for the past 1000 years have obeyed the "chief" or risked death, that they have the right to oust him in an election doesn't work - culturally they can't comprehend what it means.

Condescending bullshit. Corruption in African nations is not caused by the general populace not understanding what an election is.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Amazon 7]

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The point I was trying to make is that bleeding-heart liberals want to send all kinds of economic and medical assistance to these people in third-world cesspools

I think if you check.. MOST of those are church related charities... so you are once again..... guilty of blaming the wrong people. But we have come to expect those knee jurk reactions.

[nigel99 619]

Corruption is not "caused" by their inability to stand up and be reject the politicians - it is the ineviteble result, how does the saying go "power corrupts..."

I also didn't say that they didn't understand what an election is - I said that an election is culturally unfamiliar territory. Jeez I grew up in the place and try and get some one to manage an older person and it doesn't work. Hell often a degree qualified person will not oversee a manual worker effectively because of hierachy and culture.

It is a culture that resists change and places respect for elders and chiefs above knowledge and capability. Of course being in the UK these are totally unfamiliar concepts as it is reversed and kids and yobs rule

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Guest]

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The point I was trying to make is that bleeding-heart liberals want to send all kinds of economic and medical assistance to these people in third-world cesspools

I think if you check.. MOST of those are church related charities... so you are once again..... guilty of blaming the wrong people. But we have come to expect those knee jurk reactions.

You would be right about that, but then who supports those corrupt governments that make the rest of it necessary?

mh
.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kelpdiver 2]

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As much as I also disaprove of the actions, its not my culture. Thats the way things happen in their culture so who are we to say they are wrong? This is the perfect example of ethnocentrism. I happen to be guilty of it as well but it proves how because we live our lives differently we assume others are incorrect

It's incorrect to subjugate women. It's not ethnocentric to think this, even if the western world took its time fully equalizing the rights of women.

The basics rights of the citizens is education and voting. Without that, you have countries where oil barons are unbelievably wealthy and the rest of the people have few career options beyond suicide bomber.

[billvon 3,120]

>It's incorrect to subjugate women.

Is it incorrect to have different laws for them?

[kelpdiver 2]

you'll need to be more specific. Preferably with real world stuff. Compare the US versus the Taliban.
I'm sure somewhere in between is a point where it might be cultural, not fucking wrong.

[Amazon 7]

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You would be right about that, but then who supports those corrupt governments that make the rest of it necessary?

Hmm ok lets see since 1950.. the Cold War etc.

Truman 1950 to Jan of 1953 2 years

Ike. Jan 1953 to Jan of 1961 8 years

Kennedy/Johnson Jan 1961 to Jan 1969 8 years

Nixon/Ford Jan 1969 to Jan 1977 8 years

Carter Jan 1977 to Jan 1981 4 years

Reagan Jan 1981 to Jan of Jan of 1989 8 years

Bush the First Jan of 1989 to Jan of 1993 4 years

Clinton Jan of 1993 to Jan of 2001 8 years and untold numbers of blow jobs

Bush the Second Jan 2001 to present and you can bet not a single blow job

So.. do the math.. which one of these "evil liberals" has caused all the suffering in the last 57 years.

I come up with Republicans 34 Democrats 22

Who is the most complicit in the corruption?

[billvon 3,120]

>is a point where it might be cultural, not fucking wrong.

. . . which is the point. People will draw that line in different places even if they agree on the extremes.

[kelpdiver 2]

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. . . which is the point. People will draw that line in different places even if they agree on the extremes.

Except that lots of people, including Scoop, do not draw a line. All you hear around SF is how wrong it is for us to make judgements about these other cultures. Bullshit.

[billvon 3,120]

> All you hear around SF is how wrong it is for us to make judgements
>about these other cultures . . .

You did exactly the same thing. "I'm sure somewhere in between is a point where it might be cultural." So you think that in some cases you SHOULD accept what another culture does instead of imposing your judgements on it.