ChasingBlueSky 0 #1 April 30, 2007 http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/17134253.htm IRAQ WAR U.S. officials exclude car bombs in touting drop in Iraq violence By Nancy A. Youssef McClatchy Newspapers WASHINGTON - U.S. officials who say there has been a dramatic drop in sectarian violence in Iraq since President Bush began sending more American troops into Baghdad aren't counting one of the main killers of Iraqi civilians. Car bombs and other explosive devices have killed thousands of Iraqis in the past three years, but the administration doesn't include them in the casualty counts it has been citing as evidence that the surge of additional U.S. forces is beginning to defuse tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims. President Bush explained why in a television interview on Tuesday. "If the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory," he told TV interviewer Charlie Rose. Others, however, say that not counting bombing victims skews the evidence of how well the Baghdad security plan is protecting the civilian population - one of the surge's main goals. "Since the administration keeps saying that failure is not an option, they are redefining success in a way that suits them," said James Denselow, an Iraq specialist at London-based Chatham House, a foreign policy think tank. Bush administration officials have pointed to a dramatic decline in one category of deaths - the bodies dumped daily in Baghdad streets, which officials call sectarian murders - as evidence that the security plan is working. Bush said this week that that number had declined by 50 percent, a number confirmed by statistics compiled by McClatchy Newspapers. But the number of people killed in explosive attacks is rising, the same statistics show - up from 323 in March, the first full month of the security plan, to 365 through April 24. Overall, statistics indicate that the number of violent deaths has declined significantly since December, when 1,391 people died in Baghdad, either executed and found dead on the street or killed by bomb blasts. That number was 796 in March and 691 through April 24. Nearly all of that decline, however, can be attributed to a drop in executions, most of which were blamed on Shiite Muslim militias aligned with the government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. Much of the decline occurred before the security plan began on Feb. 15, and since then radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has ordered his Mahdi Army militia to stand down. According to the statistics, which McClatchy reporters in Baghdad compile daily from Iraqi police reports, 1,030 bodies were found in December. In January, that number declined 32 percent, to 699. It declined to 596 February and again to 473 in March. Deaths from car bombings and improvised explosive devices, however, increased from 361 in December to a peak of 520 in February before dropping to 323 in March. In that same period, the number of bombings has increased, as well. In December, there were 65 explosive attacks. That number was unchanged in January, but it rose to 72 in February, 74 in March and 81 through April 24. U.S. officials blame the bombings largely on al-Qaida, which they say is hoping to provoke sectarian conflict by targeting Shiite neighborhoods with massive explosions. Ryan Crocker, who became the U.S. ambassador in Iraq this month, said the bombings are a reaction to the surge of additional U.S. troops into Baghdad. "The terrorists like al-Qaida would make their own surge," Crocker said this week. U.S. officials have said that they don't expect the security plan to stop bombings. "I don't think you're ever going to get rid of all the car bombs," Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said this week. "Iraq is going to have to learn as did, say, Northern Ireland, to live with some degree of sensational attacks." But some think that approach could backfire, with Iraqis eventually blaming the Americans for failing to stop bombings. "To win, the insurgents just have to prove they are not losing," said Denselow, of London's Chatham House. Experts who have studied car bombings say it's no surprise that U.S. officials would want to exclude their victims from any measure of success. Car bombs are almost impossible to detect and stop, particularly in a traffic-jammed city such as Baghdad. U.S. officials in Baghdad concede that while they've found scores of car bomb factories in Iraq, they've made only a small dent in the manufacturing of these weapons. Mike Davis, who recently wrote a history of car bombs, said that once car bombs are introduced into a conflict, they're all but impossible to eradicate. A few people with rudimentary skills can assemble one with massive effect. "They really don't have to be very sophisticated; they just have to be very big," Davis said. Davis said checkpoints are useful in detecting car bombs "until they blow up the checkpoint," and erecting walls is not practically feasible in communities. When U.S. officials proposed building walls around Baghdad's most troubled neighborhoods to fend off car bomb attacks, residents balked, saying the walls would further divide the city along sectarian lines. Bombers also have shown that they can adapt quickly. When the U.S. military blocked off markets to vehicular traffic, bombers wearing explosive vests were able to walk into the areas. Finding a defense against car bombs has fallen to the Joint IED Defeat Organization, a Pentagon task force created in 2003 to find ways to protect U.S. troops from roadside bombs, which remain the No. 1 killer of Americans in Iraq. But car bombs aren't the primary killer of American service members, said Christine Devries, the task force's spokeswoman. Roadside bombs are. --- ABOUT IRAQI CIVILIAN CASUALTIES There are no authoritative statistics on Iraqi civilian casualties. The Iraq Study Group in its report last year found that the Pentagon routinely underreports violence. Other groups have criticized the Iraqi government's statistics as unreliable - a moot point since the government recently stopped releasing comprehensive totals. On Wednesday, the United Nations Assistance Mission for Iraq chastised the Iraqi government for withholding statistics on sectarian violence. One study, conducted by Johns Hopkins University's Bloomberg School of Public Health and Mustansiriyah University in Baghdad, estimated that 78,000 Iraqis were killed by car bombings between March 2003 and June 2006. Iraq Body Count, which keeps statistics based on news reports, finds that there have been just over 1,050 car bombs that have killed more than one person since August 2003, when a car bomb detonated in front of what was the United Nations headquarters, killing 17. McClatchy gathers its statistics daily from police contacts, and while they're not comprehensive, they're collected the same way every day. A roundup of Iraq violence is posted daily on the McClatchy Washington Bureau Web site, http://www.mcclatchydc.com. Click on Iraq War Coverage_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #2 April 30, 2007 >"If the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, >we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory," >he told TV interviewer Charlie Rose. We HAVE handed terrorists a huge victory in Iraq. We gave them a training ground and the best recruitment tool they have ever seen. Al Qaeda can now claim that US soldiers are raping and killing Iraqi teenage girls - and they can prove it. We should stop making it so easy for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #3 April 30, 2007 The Government indulging in stat-chasing?? Never.... Fuck...anyone who's been military knows how much the govt will chase stats at the expense of reality, simply because it makes them look better come budget time.Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #4 April 30, 2007 Not only that, we are adding fuel to the fire outside Iraq: QuoteRIYADH, Saudi Arabia - Alarmed to find that detainees are emerging from the Guantanamo Bay prison camp and other U.S. detention centers more devoted than ever to radical Islam, Saudi Arabia is offering counseling, financial aid and even matchmaking to pull young militants away from terrorism. http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17151354.htm So... The DC spin machine doesn't add in the primary source of violence in the region and calls it a victory. Meanwhile, the treatment and confinement by the US is providing future generations with even more terrorists. Meanwhile, worldwide terroism has increased: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17151354.htm QuoteWASHINGTON - A State Department report on terrorism due out next week will show a nearly 30 percent increase in terrorist attacks worldwide in 2006 to more than 14,000, almost all of the boost due to growing violence in Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. officials said Friday. Remind me how this Admin has made the US and World a safer place? If you read part of George Tenet's book, he feels the ultimate goal fo UBL and company is to explode a nuke on US soil. Now thanks to this Administration, they will have more people jaded enough to go extreme and help with those plans._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #5 April 30, 2007 QuoteThe Government indulging in stat-chasing?? Never.... Fuck...anyone who's been military knows how much the govt will chase stats at the expense of reality, simply because it makes them look better come budget time. I thought it was about democracy in Iraq and a safer US. Isn't that the point of this new surge in troops?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #6 April 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteThe Government indulging in stat-chasing?? Never.... Fuck...anyone who's been military knows how much the govt will chase stats at the expense of reality, simply because it makes them look better come budget time. I thought it was about democracy in Iraq and a safer US. Isn't that the point of this new surge in troops? You misunderstand my position. I think Iraq is Vietnam v.2.0., and is 4x the clusterfuck that VN was...Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #7 April 30, 2007 Quote You misunderstand my position. I think Iraq is Vietnam v.2.0., and is 4x the clusterfuck that VN was... I guess you would be basing that on US casualty count. No? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #8 April 30, 2007 Quote Quote You misunderstand my position. I think Iraq is Vietnam v.2.0., and is 4x the clusterfuck that VN was... I guess you would be basing that on US casualty count. No? No, long term consequences. VN won the war, but at the cost of not getting their own Marshall Plan for reconstruction. Instead they got fifth-rate Soviet crap for rebuilding. THey're only now (last 5-10yrs) becoming economically viable. Iraq's decimation will lead to instability in the ME on a scale never seen before. Iran will inevitably fill the power vacuum...And we'll have a Tom Clancy-esque United Islamic Republic...Bad juju...Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #9 April 30, 2007 All of these numbers and yet, no statistics on the number of enemy dead due to combat. I know somebody is keeping a tally. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #10 April 30, 2007 QuoteIraq's decimation will lead to instability in the ME on a scale never seen before. Iran will inevitably fill the power vacuum...And we'll have a Tom Clancy-esque United Islamic Republic...Bad juju... The whole lot of them have been living by the sword for centuries. The herd is just thinning itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #11 April 30, 2007 >I guess you would be basing that on US casualty count. Vietnam total US casualties: 210,000 Vietnam war duration: 19 years Per year: 11,000 Iraq total US casualties:29,000 Iraq war duration: 4 years Per year: 7,300 Well, we're doing a bit better, which is good. It will take another few surges before we can reach Vietnam casualty levels. Remember the good ol days when the right-wingers were saying "Iraq is NOTHING LIKE Vietnam!" ? Now they've been reduced to saying "well, it's not _quite_ as bad." Makes me wonder what they'll be saying in two years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #12 April 30, 2007 I can't imagine why you would expect anything resembling the truth out of this administration. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #13 May 1, 2007 I'm currently reading Failed States by Noam Chomsky and he quotes this stat: "From 1998 to 2003 there were 315 suicide attacks worldwide, initially for the most part by the secular Tamil Tigers. Since the US invasion, estimates of suicide bombings in Iraq (where such attacks were virtually unknown before) range as high as 400." He continues: "A study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) found that "85 percent of Saudi militants who went to Iraq were not on any gov't watchlist, al Qaeda members or Terrorist sympathizers" but were "radicalized almost exclusively by the Coalition invasion." He goes on to explain that Iraq has become the extemist (neo-Salafi) breeding ground and the NSC [redicts that as the conflict in Iraq lessens and targets aroudn the world become higher priority that they will be attacked by individuals trained in Iraq. In fact, the training they get in Iraq will be better than any in the past as they can effectively test their training against Coalition troops._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #14 May 1, 2007 >initially for the most part by the secular Tamil Tigers. WHAT? They're not Islamic! They can't be terrorists! BTW side note - read a story the other day that the Tamil Tigers have been bombing (as in dropping bombs on) Sri Lankan fuel facilities. Which made me think - the Tamil Tigers have an AIR FORCE? It may just be that we've been distracted long enough by our misadventures in Iraq that we're missing some significant evolving threats. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #15 May 1, 2007 The Tamil Tigers apparently found ways to divert Tsunami Relief funds over to them as well. Doubt you would ever hear much about them in this country since there aren't many vested US interests in the Sri Lanka area. We are also evolving other threats in Indonesia which is home to the largest Muslim population. In 2000, 75% of that population had favorable opinons of Americans. By 2002 it had dropped to 15% and 80% currently fear an attack by the Bush Administration. This fear is being used to recruit._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #16 May 1, 2007 Quote>I guess you would be basing that on US casualty count. Vietnam total US casualties: 210,000 Vietnam war duration: 19 years Per year: 11,000 Iraq total US casualties:29,000 Iraq war duration: 4 years Per year: 7,300 Well, we're doing a bit better, which is good. It will take another few surges before we can reach Vietnam casualty levels. Remember the good ol days when the right-wingers were saying "Iraq is NOTHING LIKE Vietnam!" ? Now they've been reduced to saying "well, it's not _quite_ as bad." Makes me wonder what they'll be saying in two years. If it wasn't for the superb body armor our troops have today, we would be on pace to exceed the Vietnam deaths. We will have many, many soldiers who survive, but missing arms and legs. It's sure better than being killed, but should not be ignored when considering the stats from this conflict. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #17 May 1, 2007 Quote If it wasn't for the superb body armor our troops have today, we would be on pace to exceed the Vietnam deaths. We will have many, many soldiers who survive, but missing arms and legs. It's sure better than being killed, but should not be ignored when considering the stats from this conflict. If we waited for the transports to be fully equip'd with armor before they were launched into a warzone we would have more soldiers alive, or at the very least, more with 2 arms and 2 legs. Much better to rush into a war that was based on lies than to wait for proof and time for our armed forces to be ready._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
