Should people who are diagnosed as suicidal be allowed to buy guns?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Edit: on a side note and in response to no one in particular - using a gun for suicide seems to be a messy way to do it and I think it's rude to those that find the body and have to clean it up.

but the person doesn't have to deal with the glimmer of hope you can be saved (say you took pills) - have to take your pulse, check your color, give CPR/AR in a pointless attempt to restore you.

Jumper suicides seem like one of the worst.

[kelpdiver 2]

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That's true. But a person with a history of depression/suicidal thoughts is probably no more likely than the general population to use a gun to commit homicide. In my experience I can't think of a time when that's even been a concern when dealing with a suicidal person.

the phrase "murder-suicide" didn't come out of thin air.

[skydyvr 0]

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I believe there should be a waiting period during which time the applicant's Internet forum posting history is investigated.

If it is disvovered that the applicant has a sustained history of babbling incoherency, the sale should be denied.

FISH ON !!!

[URL]http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2770116#2770116[/URL]

LOL

. . =(_8^(1)

[Amazon 7]

You are leaving a trail of scales behind you I obviously have used the right bait once again to get the fishy to come out of its hidey spot.

[Lindsey 0]

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That's true. But a person with a history of depression/suicidal thoughts is probably no more likely than the general population to use a gun to commit homicide. In my experience I can't think of a time when that's even been a concern when dealing with a suicidal person.

the phrase "murder-suicide" didn't come out of thin air.

No, it didn't. But of the numbers of people who commit suicide without killing someone else and the number of murders that don't include suicide, I doubt that there's enough of a statistical significance to be worried that people who commit suicide are at risk of murdering other people.

Also, I'm not sure that people who commit murder/suicide are really suicidal to begin with all that often. I think there's probably a large proportion who wouldn't be suicidal if they had not just committed murder. I'm thinking it's a different beast.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Andy9o8 2]

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in 2005 he was declared by a judge to be "a danger of imminent harm to himself" due to mental illness. Not just an opinion of 1 doctor, mind you, but a formal adjudication by a court.

This is something entirely different that a treating health care provider diagnosing it. With this it becomes a public record. In this sense, was there a system in place informing any enforcement agency of it that would prevent him from buying a gun? Did the system fail? Apparently, he passed a background check easily.

That's my point.

[likearock 2]

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"Suicidal" is not a diagnosis.

Perhaps. But just because it isn't a category within the DSM-IV, doesn't mean that some people aren't more at risk than others. And any mental health professional of ability should be able to detect which of their patients falls into that category and is at heightened "danger to themselves." In fact, it is often crucial that they be able to distinguish those at higher risk.

While I realize that the great majority of people with tendency toward suicide is not a threat to others, it's hard to ignore the other pattern. In both VT and Columbine, the murderers were resigned to suicide when they planned their acts. Much as we all like to believe in the innate of goodness of man, the fact remains that the key deterrent to murder is having to deal with the consequences. However, barring the existence of an afterlife, someone with their mind up on suicide gets a free ride if they want to add murder to the mix. Not a pleasant thought, but that's how it is.

[Lindsey 0]

There is a very different quality to the psychopathology of people who kill others before taking their own lives than there is to the masses of people who have suicidal ideation every day. To make a statement that people who have been "diagnosed" as suicidal shouldn't be allowed to have guns because of their tendencies to commit murder is just not a valid argument.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[likearock 2]

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There is a very different quality to the psychopathology of people who kill others before taking their own lives than there is to the masses of people who have suicidal ideation every day. To make a statement that people who have been "diagnosed" as suicidal shouldn't be allowed to have guns because of their tendencies to commit murder is just not a valid argument.

Granted some people who are not at risk to others would be deprived of guns. On the other hand, since both categories you mention above are of danger to themselves, doesn't it make sense to keep all of them away from guns?

[Lindsey 0]

lol...yes. I think that was in my first post on the subject. But I was responding to....what I said in my last post...lol.

1) If you're suicidal, you shouldn't have guns.
2) If you're homicidal, you shouldn't have guns.
3) I think there's more of a tendency for those in the 2nd category to drift into the first than there is for those in the first category to drift into the second.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[likearock 2]

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lol...yes. I think that was in my first post on the subject. But I was responding to....what I said in my last post...lol.

Yeah, I should have been clearer myself in the opener that while only a small minority of suicidal people are also homicidal, they all are better off without guns.

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1) If you're suicidal, you shouldn't have guns.
2) If you're homicidal, you shouldn't have guns.
3) I think there's more of a tendency for those in the 2nd category to drift into the first than there is for those in the first category to drift into the second.

Not sure if you can justify such a clean distinction. From what I understand, suicide is the ultimate expression of anger turned inward. Murder may in that case be seen as the ultimate expression of anger turned outward. It's the same anger, regardless. How can you be sure which came first?

[Lindsey 0]

How can you be sure which came first?

It's just my belief after years of treating people with mental illness. I don't think there's a study out there, but people who kill others have different psychopathology than those who are depressed and suicidal. I would expect a person with Antisocial Personality D/O to kill others then himself WAAAAAY before I'd expect a person with Major Depressive D/O to do the same.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Guest 1010]

I think you'd be shocked at how few people are legally unable to buy firearms due to mental illness. States keep such lists, and provide them to the feds and other states, but they just aren't used. I don't know if it is the mental health professionals, or the courts, or a different entity that causes the Psych Security Review Board (as called in my state) gun-prohibited list to be basically empty.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[likearock 2]

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How can you be sure which came first?

It's just my belief after years of treating people with mental illness. I don't think there's a study out there, but people who kill others have different psychopathology than those who are depressed and suicidal. I would expect a person with Antisocial Personality D/O to kill others then himself WAAAAAY before I'd expect a person with Major Depressive D/O to do the same.

If you look at what we know of Cho, it's hard to escape the observation that at least some of his symptoms fall in the latter category. From an early age, he was acutely depressed, terrified of the world around him, and spoke of committing suicide numerous times (no excuse for what he did, of course). I realize that most suicidal people do not externalize their repressed anger the way he did and that they are among the most sympathetic people out there. But that sympathy should not blind us to similarities between the two groups.

[Lindsey 0]

I'd bet he'd much more likely fit the profile of a person with a personality disorder than with a pure mood disorder. People with personality disorders--borderline comes immediately to mind, but also antisocial--may have some symptoms of/episodes of depression, but these episodes are full of threats of harm, failed suicide attempts--things that are used by the individual to control the people around them.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail