Gas Prices

[shropshire 0]

You folk are getting soo ripped off... and you're only getting about 0.8 of a real gallon to boot.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 3,088]

>It's not nearly that discounted anywhere else.

I think E85 is about the same everywhere. But gas is running $3.40-$3.50 a gallon out here.

>you don't purchase gallons of gas, you purchase gas to drive miles.
>You are buying miles.

If all cars saw similar fuel economy, I'd agree.

[billvon 3,088]

>That is what $2 plus worth of state taxes will get ya

Nope. If gas is $4.07, then that's $3.56 fuel costs and $.50 taxes - or 12% in fed/state taxes.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>That is what $2 plus worth of state taxes will get ya

Nope. If gas is $4.07, then that's $3.56 fuel costs and $.50 taxes - or 12% in fed/state taxes.

OK, so why then is gas $2 cheaper every where else in the country?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,088]

>OK, so why then is gas $2 cheaper every where else in the country?

1) Higher demand (more cars, longer drives on average.)

2) Requirements for cleaner summer/winter blends (and we're just switching over now.)

3) $3.40 - $2.40 = $1, not $2.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>OK, so why then is gas $2 cheaper every where else in the country?

1) Higher demand (more cars, longer drives on average.)

2) Requirements for cleaner summer/winter blends (and we're just switching over now.)

3) $3.40 - $2.40 = $1, not $2.

Well, too bad for California. We are at $2.70 here and that is bad enough

One thing is for sure. If we did not have so damed many different blends to satisfiy all the local requirments prices would drop significantly

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,088]

>If we did not have so damed many different blends to satisfiy all the
>local requirments prices would drop significantly . . .

I'd bet they'd drop a bit, into the low $2's. You'd still have the same issues you have now, you could just sell gasoline to a wider market more easily.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>If we did not have so damed many different blends to satisfiy all the
>local requirments prices would drop significantly . . .

I'd bet they'd drop a bit, into the low $2's. You'd still have the same issues you have now, you could just sell gasoline to a wider market more easily.

Maybe

What is the state tax for gas in California?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 23]

Never mind. I found a link with the per state tax levels. Kind of surprising

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>If all cars saw similar fuel economy, I'd agree.

that makes absolutely no sense at all in this thread's context - isn't there enough other threads on that tangent already?

E85 - $$/miles to the consumer tends to balance out no matter what kind of vehicle (spec or HV, whatever). Gallons of petroleum (without the corn juice) per mile tend to cancel out from the same mechanism...... Plus, it costs extra resources and time and energy to manufacture yet ANOTHER fuel formula. Net effect is it's worse for net worldwide carbon consumption for tangible metrics (total miles drived vs total carbon used). It only makes people "Feel" good, but the result is the opposite of the intent.

Oh, and some special interest groups get grants and funding.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,088]

>Plus, it costs extra resources and time and energy to manufacture yet
>ANOTHER fuel formula. Net effect is it's worse for net worldwide carbon
>consumption for tangible metrics (total miles drived vs total carbon used).
>It only makes people "Feel" good, but the result is the opposite of the
>intent.

Nope, it GENERATES as much carbon but the NET result is less, because that carbon is reabsorbed (indeed, must be reabsorbed) by the same crops that produce the fuel. It's like using a credit card and paying it off every month vs using a credit card and never paying it off. You may be buying the same amount of stuff in both cases, but one case will put you into debt pretty fast.

[champu 1]

Quote

I have to walk 300 miles to work bare foot with nothing but a handfull... a small handfull of gravel for my breakfast and have to pay the oil companies for the privilegdge.......... but y'try to tell the kids today and the dont believe ya.

Handful of gravel? You were lucky!

[mnealtx 0]

Bill -

I've seen you mention E85 several times, now - do you feel it's a better or worse solution than going to a diesel vehicle, in regards to efficiency/mileage?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 3,088]

>I've seen you mention E85 several times, now - do you feel it's a better or
>worse solution than going to a diesel vehicle, in regards to
>efficiency/mileage?

It's hard to compare apples to apples since very, very few engines will burn both. But in general, diesel engines are around 20% more efficient per gallon, since diesel contains more energy per gallon and since diesel engines have much lower pumping losses than Otto-cycle engines (which is what's in 95% of gas cars nowadays.)

Cars that do not change their compression ratio get about 25% _worse_ gas mileage on E85 than they go on gasoline. Engines that do change their compression ratios (these are rare) get nearly the same gas mileage. There's less energy in a gallon of ethanol but high-compression engines are inherently more efficient. Unfortunately no commercial car engine will do this yet.

So in general, diesel is more economical even if it costs up to 20% more than gasoline.

In terms of biofuels, biodiesel is a _much_ better choice than corn-based ethanol. Biodiesel has a net energy gain of 3.2, whereas ethanol has a gain of only 1.34. (i.e. for every gallon of ethanol you start with you produce 1.34 gallons of ethanol afterwards.) The reasons:

Ethanol is currently made with corn, which takes a lot of fertilizer, water and pesticide. Biodiesel is made from palm oil or soybeans, both of which are significantly easier to grow. Also, to make biodiesel you squeeze the beans, add some methanol and lye to the oil that comes out, and you end up with biodiesel and glycerin, which is a useful chemical (soap base.) No fermentation/distillation required.

All this will change once we get cellulosic ethanol working well. That will allow us to use nearly any cellulose-based product (seagrass, cornstalks, wood chips etc.) The energy gain will go way up, and we won't have any problem getting enough feedstock. That's the main reason I support E85 now - even though it's not the best fuel as a corn-based fuel, increased usage will spur development into things like cellulosic ethanol that _will_ solve many of our problems.

[Rookie120 0]

You know Bill this all sounds good. But a lot of the E-85 engines really dont any better fuel mileage than the regular engines. So what I see is when I go to fill up is I still just went 350 miles on 15 gallons of gas that cost $2.70 gallon. What I want to see is 50 -60 miles a gallon. Is it possible to do that and still have enough or big enough engine to pull a boat or haul some stuff in the back of a pick-up truck?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,088]

>But a lot of the E-85 engines really dont any better fuel mileage than the regular engines.

Well, right. Dedicated ethanol engines (with higher compression) get almost the same mileage as gas engines.

>What I want to see is 50 -60 miles a gallon. Is it possible to do that
>and still have enough or big enough engine to pull a boat or haul some
>stuff in the back of a pick-up truck?

Not all of it at once. You could do a high compression Atkins hybrid and get 50-60mpg on ethanol and have decent cargo carrying capability. A hybrid gives you good acceleration and short term power, but for long distance towing you need the larger engine (high power output.)

For larger loads (like towing) you're better off with a diesel anyway.

[ExAFO 0]

What would you suggest for hauling a gross of housecats?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[shropshire 0]

A BBQ

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[mpohl 1]

I LOVE IT!

Make it $5 or $6 bucks a gallon. Or $12. Walking and bike-riding 20 mi a day is good for you. Also cuts down on morbidly-obese Americans. If you cant get to work by foot or bike, or afford $12/gal., contact your representative/senator/president about investing in efficient public transportation (vs. the war in Iraq).

Quote

> look for 4 bucks in ca this yr . . .

See below; picture taken in San Francisco.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Make it $5 or $6 bucks a gallon. Or $12. Walking and bike-riding 20 mi a day is good for you. Also cuts down on morbidly-obese Americans. If you cant get to work by foot or bike, or afford $12/gal., contact your representative/senator/president about investing in efficient public transportation (vs. the war in Iraq).

Do you plan on riding your bike in the middle of winter where I live. I also would love to see you bike up the New Jersey Turnpike during the morning rush.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

You could do a high compression Atkins hybrid and get 50-60mpg on ethanol and have decent cargo carrying capability

When you say decent do you mean something along the size on a Ford Ranger or something? And what or is that engine available on and vehicles in production now?


***For larger loads (like towing) you're better off with a diesel anyway.
***


I'm not talking about pulling a camper. I'm talking about pulling a couple of snowmobiles on a small trailer or something.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[billvon 3,088]

>Do you plan on riding your bike in the middle of winter where I live. I also
> would love to see you bike up the New Jersey Turnpike during the
> morning rush.

It's all a question of what's plowed. It's as easy to ride a city bike on a plowed path as it is to drive your typical car on a plowed road. And around here it's often faster to ride during rush hour - no traffic in the bike lanes (which are often completely separate from the car lanes.)

>When you say decent do you mean something along the size on a Ford
>Ranger or something? And what or is that engine available on and vehicles
>in production now?

Right now there are no pure E85 vehicles in production in the US, and there are no hybrid pickups yet. The Highlander hybrid can carry a decent amount of stuff, can tow around 4000 pounds, and gets over 30mpg. (Lower than a Prius mainly due to how high it rides and how non-aerodynamic it is.)

>I'm not talking about pulling a camper. I'm talking about pulling a couple
>of snowmobiles on a small trailer or something.

Well, most cars (including hybrids) will do that! It's not all that meaningful to talk about towing snowmobiles, boats, dune buggies etc in terms of gas mileage, though. You generally use more gas in the boat than you do towing the thing around.

[akarunway 1]

Quote

>But a lot of the E-85 engines really dont any better fuel mileage than the regular engines.

Well, right. Dedicated ethanol engines (with higher compression) get almost the same mileage as gas engines.

>What I want to see is 50 -60 miles a gallon. Is it possible to do that
>and still have enough or big enough engine to pull a boat or haul some
>stuff in the back of a pick-up truck?

Not all of it at once. You could do a high compression Atkins hybrid and get 50-60mpg on ethanol and have decent cargo carrying capability. A hybrid gives you good acceleration and short term power, but for long distance towing you need the larger engine (high power output.)

For larger loads (like towing) you're better off with a diesel anyway.

450 page readhttp://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[ExAFO 0]

This Thread

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[mnealtx 0]

Thanks, Bill - I appreciate the info

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706