Australia: Gun ban had NO effect on murder rate

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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They are. As long as you stay off public roads you don't need a license to operate a car.

Nor can you take it off private property.

I can stick my unregistered motor vehicle on a trailer and tow it any place I want.

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I agree, cars and guns should be treated the same way. I know gun owners and the NRA would never agree to that though.

I'd love guns to be treated like cars - no limits on performance, licesnsing for operation in public following a trivial practical and written test, and states' universal acceptance of each others licenses.

Unlike pro-gun groups which take a more literal reading of the Constitution as the case is in Vermont and Alaska, the NRA supports such licensing.

[billvon 3,085]

>You don't need a license to buy a car in the US.

Correct - but you need a license to take it anywhere but your own property, or to drive it off the lot. When you buy a car, you are required to show ID, register it and show proof of insurance. Is that really what pro-gun types want? If not, I'd hesitate to make the car analogy too often.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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You don't need a license to buy a car in the US.

Oh, you probably meant something else.

Right, just need the license to use it (and proof of insurance) I would personally not have an issue with doing the exact same for guns.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I can stick my unregistered motor vehicle on a trailer and tow it any place I want.

Right, which would be fine with guns as well. Ie put it in the trunk of the car until on private property and if not licensed.

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I'd love guns to be treated like cars - no limits on performance, licesnsing for operation in public following a trivial practical and written test, and states' universal acceptance of each others licenses.

You are leaving out the insurance requirement though. Put that in and I agree with you.

And there is a limit on performance used when you are on public roads.

[JohnRich 4]

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Banning legal gun ownership seeks to reduce the number of (legally owned) gun related deaths due to handling accidents...

Actually, data available elsewhere shows that this did not happen. Fatal firearms accidents actually increased after the gun ban. Therefore, if you think the ban is responsible for changes, then it accomplished a negative result.

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...and maybe to prevent legally purchased firearms ending up on the black market thus resulting in illegal gun ownership.

Freedom demands more proof than "maybe". And since murders continued to decline at the same rate as before, you can't claim that the gun ban provided any benefit in this regard.

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As for the claim that murder rates would have kept declining at the same rate even without a ban, all I can say is that without any supporting evidence this is wishful thinking at best (or bad science at the very least).

They were declining at that same rate prior to the ban. That contradicts your belief that this is wishful thinking. Government statistics already prove it to be true, and that you are wrong.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>You don't need a license to buy a car in the US.

Correct - but you need a license to take it anywhere but your own property, or to drive it off the lot. When you buy a car, you are required to show ID, register it and show proof of insurance. Is that really what pro-gun types want? If not, I'd hesitate to make the car analogy too often.

In California, you can't take weapons off your property without locking them in the trunk, so any parallel to how we can buy cars is an easing of the onerous regulations around guns in the state.

You don't need a license, insurance, or more than no-op status to take that car home. What you're going on about would be akin to the mythical CCWs in the state.

[DZJ 0]

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In California, you can't take weapons off your property without locking them in the trunk, so any parallel to how we can buy cars is an easing of the onerous regulations around guns in the state.

Out of curiosity, what's the penalty for breaking that rule? A fine? Confiscation?

[br0k3n 0]

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Easy Arugula Salad

It's rude to disrupt a discussion by posting something completely irrelevant.

If you don't have anything to contribute, I suggest you just ignore the thread.

A meatloaf is a great family favourite. This recipe can easily be changed to suit your taste or mood, or according to what you have on hand in the fridge."

Serves Serves 4-6

You need:
500 g lean minced beef
250 g minced pork, or sausage meat (which is fattier)
1 cup finely chopped capsicum
1/2 brown onion, chopped
1 egg
1 tsp salt
1 tsp ground cumin
1/4 tsp chilli powder
4 tbsp chopped parsley
freshly ground black pepper
1/2 cup breadcrumbs
3 tbsp water
2 cups Italian-style tomato sauce

Method:
Preheat the oven to 180°C.

Place the minced beef and pork in a large bowl and combine by hand with the capsicum, onion, egg, salt, cumin, chilli, parsley, pepper, breadcrumbs and water until it holds together well.

Shape the mixture into a loaf and place in the centre of a suitably sized oven dish. Pour the tomato sauce over the loaf and bake in the preheated oven for 1 hour, basting every 20 minutes. If the loaf becomes too dry, add 1-2 tbsp boiling water.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[jcd11235 0]

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It's rude to disrupt a discussion by posting something completely irrelevant.

If you don't have anything to contribute, I suggest you just ignore the thread.

I'm not a big fan of cherry tomatoes, they tend to taste unwashed. Is it ok to deseed a whole tomato and just dice it up into like half inch bits?

What's the best way to de-seed a whole tomato?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[ExAFO 0]

CLASSIC BRUNSWICK STEW

Ingredients


3 squirrels - about 1 pound dressed and cut into 6 serving pieces each.

Flour for dredging
6 slices of bacon
2 large yellow onion, chopped
2 tablespoons garlic, chopped
1 cup diced plum tomatoes
6 cups chicken stock
2 cups dry white wine
2 bay leaves
1 cup diced red potatoes
1/2 pound young okra
1 cup fresh corn kernels
1 cup fresh lima or baby butter beans
1/2 cup diced, peeled turnip
1 1/2 teaspoons minced fresh rosemary
4 tablespoons butter, cut into several pieces

Salt and freshly ground pepper to taste

Directions
Dredge squirrel pieces in flour and shake off the excess.

In a Dutch oven, fry bacon until crispy and then remove it to a paper towel, leaving the drippings.

Add the squirrel in batches to avoid crowding.

Brown evenly on all sides than set aside.

Put onion, garlic and tomatoes in the pot and sauté until onion is softened and starting to turn golden.

Add stock, wine, bay leaves and squirrel pieces and bring to a slow simmer.

Cook uncovered until the meat is tender and falling off the bone but still intact.

For young grey squirrels this may take 1 hour; for older squirrels may need two.

Remove the squirrel pieces, than pull meat from the bones.

Skim any fat from liquid, then return the meat to the pot along with potatoes, okra, corn, beans, turnips and rosemary.

Simmer until the potatoes and turnips are tender, 7 to 9 minutes
Crumble bacon and stir it into the stew.

Add the butter pieces, stir until melted, and season with salt and pepper.

Serve immediately.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In California, you can't take weapons off your property without locking them in the trunk, so any parallel to how we can buy cars is an easing of the onerous regulations around guns in the state.

Out of curiosity, what's the penalty for breaking that rule? A fine? Confiscation?

A pretty harsh penalty, typically, esp if loaded. (a separate magazine with rounds would count). You probably won't be legally permitted to own a gun afterwards. I suspect that weapon would be confiscated, but you'd probably be allowed to sell off any others so long as they leave your possession pronto.

If you want a precise answer, I can get it to you later, but it's certainly beyond just a fine.

[DaVinci 0]

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Pointing out the fact that criminals are not going to hand in their illegal firearms as a result of a ban is nothing but a diversionary tactic, and a rather weak one at that

It is also a fact. Why pass laws to prevent what is not the problem? Gun violence is the problem and the solution is not to prevent legal gun ownership. My guns have never killed anyone.

[billvon 3,085]

>In California, you can't take weapons off your property without locking them in the trunk . . .

Not true! You can carry weapons in California anywhere you choose if you have a CCW license, just as you can drive anywhere in CA if you have a driver's license.

If you do not have such a license, you cannot operate a car on public streets - although others may do so. If you wish to take your car somewhere, you must get a licensed driver to drive it. This makes gun ownership LESS hassle, because you can still transport the weapon without a CCW license if you observe certain rules (like locking it in the trunk.)

>You don't need a license, insurance, or more than no-op status to
>take that car home.

Yes, you do. You cannot legally drive the car on any public street without a license, registration and insurance. You can, of course, get a tow truck, and have the (licensed) tow truck operator take your car home on his (registered and insured) tow vehicle.

[DZJ 0]

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In California, you can't take weapons off your property without locking them in the trunk, so any parallel to how we can buy cars is an easing of the onerous regulations around guns in the state.

Out of curiosity, what's the penalty for breaking that rule? A fine? Confiscation?

A pretty harsh penalty, typically, esp if loaded. (a separate magazine with rounds would count). You probably won't be legally permitted to own a gun afterwards. I suspect that weapon would be confiscated, but you'd probably be allowed to sell off any others so long as they leave your possession pronto.

If you want a precise answer, I can get it to you later, but it's certainly beyond just a fine.

Thanks for the answer, and if it's no inconvenience, please do - I find the wide variation in gun laws quite interesting.

[kelpdiver 2]

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>In California, you can't take weapons off your property without locking them in the trunk . . .

Not true! You can carry weapons in California anywhere you choose if you have a CCW license, just as you can drive anywhere in CA if you have a driver's license.

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already addressed - in most counties the CCW permit is like a unicorn.

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>You don't need a license, insurance, or more than no-op status to
>take that car home.

Yes, you do. You cannot legally drive the car on any public street without a license, registration and insurance. You can, of course, get a tow truck, and have the (licensed) tow truck operator take your car home on his (registered and insured) tow vehicle.

Make up your mind. First you try to disagree, then you agree?

Tired from a long day, Bill?

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[br0k3n 0]

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It's rude to disrupt a discussion by posting something completely irrelevant.

If you don't have anything to contribute, I suggest you just ignore the thread.

I'm not a big fan of cherry tomatoes, they tend to taste unwashed. Is it ok to deseed a whole tomato and just dice it up into like half inch bits?

What's the best way to de-seed a whole tomato?

Getting Ready:
Bring a pot of cold water to a boil, enough to cover a single layer of tomatoes; don't add any salt. Fill a large mixing bowl with cold tap water. The water must be cold to stop the tomatoes from cooking. Add in a tray of ice cubes, if needed, to keep the water cold. Get out your paring knife, slotted ladle and cutting surface.

Removing the Skins:
For each tomato: cut out the top core and then slice off the bottom tip (if any), using a paring knife. Run the knife around the tomato, cutting only through the skin; going around from the top to the bottom and then around and across; prepare a few tomatoes at a time. Using a slotted ladle, lower a few tomatoes into the boiling water and blanch them for about 30 - 90 seconds. Older and larger tomatoes take longer to blanch than younger and smaller ones. Transfer blanched tomatoes to the cold water and cool for 20 - 30 seconds, to make handling easier. Take each tomato and gently push (pull) off its skins; discard skins.

Removing the Seeds:
Cut each tomato into 4 wedges and then push out the seeds using your thumb. Depending on the tomato, you can use a paring knife to cut and remove the flesh that holds the seeds to the tomato.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[vpozzoli 0]

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Banning legal gun ownership seeks to reduce the number of (legally owned) gun related deaths due to handling accidents...

Actually, data available elsewhere shows that this did not happen. Fatal firearms accidents actually increased after the gun ban. Therefore, if you think the ban is responsible for changes, then it accomplished a negative result.

Source?

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...and maybe to prevent legally purchased firearms ending up on the black market thus resulting in illegal gun ownership.

Freedom demands more proof than "maybe". And since murders continued to decline at the same rate as before, you can't claim that the gun ban provided any benefit in this regard.

Please re-read my sentence. "Maybe" clearly means "maybe with the intention to prevent..." and not "with the intention to prevent guns from maybe ending up...".

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As for the claim that murder rates would have kept declining at the same rate even without a ban, all I can say is that without any supporting evidence this is wishful thinking at best (or bad science at the very least).

They were declining at that same rate prior to the ban. That contradicts your belief that this is wishful thinking. Government statistics already prove it to be true, and that you are wrong.

Which obviously does not prove causation or lack thereof in any way. Trends are just trends, regardless of whose point of view they suit.

[Kennedy 0]

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But did it prevent another massacre? You'll never really know for sure.

I've met someone who painted their house in glaringly bright pinks and yellows to scare off the aliens. Did it prevent aliens coming and attacking? "You'll never really know."

I met another person who burns dried animal feces on Tuesday to prevent birds from conspiring against humans. Did it prevent the conspiracy? "You'll never really know."

Doing something stupid and then claiming it caused something bad to not happen is astoundingly moronic. Just ask billvon when a hardcore rightwinger says some action of Bush's prevented terrorist attacks. (and there's more credibility there than in some gun ban preventing attacks)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I've met someone who painted their house in glaringly bright pinks and yellows to scare off the aliens. Did it prevent aliens coming and attacking? "You'll never really know."

I met another person who burns dried animal feces on Tuesday to prevent birds from conspiring against humans. Did it prevent the conspiracy? "You'll never really know."

Doing something stupid and then claiming it caused something bad to not happen is astoundingly moronic. Just ask billvon when a hardcore rightwinger says some action of Bush's prevented terrorist attacks. (and there's more credibility there than in some gun ban preventing attacks)

Does the concept of preconceived notion mean anything to you?

Gun crime and the rate at which it occurs has more variables than just the availability of legal guns.

If you see that in the same light as aliens attacking and birds conspiring against humans, I would strongly suggest upping the meds.

[Kennedy 0]

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One does not need a gun to murder someone.

true, just makes it a hell of a lot easier.

If you look at his entire post, you'll see that he also made mention that gun control fails miserably to affect the actions of criminals. The point is that gun control doesn't stop gun crimes. They obviously have no affect on how effect guns are compared to other tools or weapons for attacking people. Gun bans have only two basic consequences. (1) They take guns away from people who were not the problem anyway- people who don't break the law, and (2) they create a monstrous black market for firearms.

Honestly, can anyone point to a situation where a government prohibition prevented people from getting their hands on a proscribed item?

Liquor? Nope.
Drugs? Nope.
Guns? Nope.

Prohibitions - aka bans, do not work, and are nothing more than prior restraint, an immoral and disgusting actions by an overcontrolling state.

Finally, before someone with poor comprehension skills breaks out the tired "well since laws don't work let's just repeal them all" line, I've been very clear that I am against prior restrain and these prohibitions. I am not against laws in general, instead I am a strong proponent of law and order. Laws that define acceptable conduct and punish unacceptable (bad) acts are the foundation of our society and I would not speak against them for any reason.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[billvon 3,085]

>Finally, before someone with poor comprehension skills breaks out
>the tired "well since laws don't work let's just repeal them all"

That one is as tired as the "you can kill someone with a brick, so why not ban bricks?" line.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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If you look at his entire post, you'll see that he also made mention that gun control fails miserably to affect the actions of criminals. The point is that gun control doesn't stop gun crimes. They obviously have no affect on how effect guns are compared to other tools or weapons for attacking people.

Except that crime rates in western countries with significant restrictions are generally better than crime rates in western countries with more lacks gun laws.

[Kennedy 0]

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Gun crime and the rate at which it occurs has more variables than just the availability of legal guns.

Then why is it that the first thing gun controllers call for when crime goes up or a terrible attack happens is restrictions on the availability of legal guns?

I know damned well that gun prohibitions have little to no effect on gun crimes from robbery to murder. I just don't know why proponents of gun control can't seem to get that through their skull.

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If you see that in the same light as aliens attacking and birds conspiring against humans, I would strongly suggest upping the meds.

(A) save your personal attacks, they don't bother me. I've heard worse.

(B) my birds and aliens comment was in response to dorbie's statement about preventing massacres. It is silly, but he made the comment so I responded. Nowhere in that response did I claim in anyway that legal guns affect crime rates. Perhaps you should go over your own preconceived notions, rather than mentioning meds that don't exist.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Then why is it that the first thing gun controllers call for when crime goes up or a terrible attack happens is restrictions on the availability of legal guns?

Because countries with strict gun control laws have lower crime rates.

However, at some point there might be deminishing returns, or other variables have become much stronger, at a certain level of control cultural leanings might come more into play.

[Kennedy 0]

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If you look at his entire post, you'll see that he also made mention that gun control fails miserably to affect the actions of criminals. The point is that gun control doesn't stop gun crimes. They obviously have no affect on how effect guns are compared to other tools or weapons for attacking people.

Except that crime rates in western countries with significant restrictions are generally better than crime rates in western countries with more lacks gun laws.

You're really talking yourself into a corner here. First off, you've seen several times that the presence or absence gun control is not a good indicator of high or low crime rates, so your statement is invalid on its face.

Second, even if it were true, as you said yourself, there are too many variables that actually do affect crime rate to claim that gun control is the reason for the crime rates. You can't claim gun control causes low crime rates and then claim it has no effect on crime rates. You can't have it both ways, so make up your mind.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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