juanesky 0 #76 March 16, 2007 "you are giving your best, but"... But what? at least he had a point to make, yours is just evidence on what he said has happened. Strict gun laws did not prevent any of those murderers getting a gun and murdering people, or is it something else you are trying to say?"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #77 March 16, 2007 Quote"you are giving your best, but"... But what? ... What do you want from me, Amigo? Did you ever show anything productive coming from your own ideas? Why does "brown-nose" comes to mind every time I read your posts? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #78 March 16, 2007 QuoteSo, why are laws made anyhow? Laws against burglary etc. - if a law does NOT stop madmen? So you can catch and punish them for violating them. If their were not laws then you could not stp someone or punish them for doing it. QuoteWhy don't you just let assassins enter the plane with explosives? Madmen will not be stopped by laws against it - they will blow themselves and others up as they like, they're madmen, right? There are laws against it and even with steps taken to reduce the danger it still happens. QuoteYour addiction to guns appears to be kinda weird. As does your phobia of anyone having a gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #79 March 16, 2007 QuoteIn the same way you are deluding yourself if you think that concealed carry guarantees no more gun crimes. I don't think that it will prevent bad guys from doing harm...But if I am armed it may prevent them from doing it to me or someone I care about. It may also limit the amount of damage done as shown by the women being attacked with a knife and a guy with a gun stopping the attack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #80 March 16, 2007 Quote As does your phobia of anyone having a gun. DaVinciDear, if you would go back a bit you'd find out that I have! I am a hunter, I own a lot of wonderful weapons and do not have any phobia of owning weapons.... In the contrary: I feel privileged to own them. And same time would not love too many ppl to own them. too dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #81 March 16, 2007 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As does your phobia of anyone having a gun. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DaVinciDear, if you would go back a bit you'd find out that I have! I am a hunter, I own a lot of wonderful weapons and do not have any phobia of owning weapons.... In the contrary: I feel privileged to own them. And same time would not love too many ppl to own them. too There is your phobia...YOU are OK to have guns, but not THEM. Why should they not have them just like you? Fear? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #82 March 16, 2007 Oh dear, thank your for that evaluation - what would I do without that? Now I really know where my problem is ... thanks a lot, Davinci.. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #83 March 16, 2007 Apparently you are inclined not to understand much of the posts themselves, as you have made it evident for the n time.... I think it is funny how highly you think your not so clever insult of impling I'm brown nosing anyone here, instead of making a valid point... Most of my posts in here, are my own personal opinion, and I do not need anyone to validate them at all. Too bad you probably won't be able to understand this. Take care."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #84 March 16, 2007 QuoteOh dear, thank your for that evaluation - what would I do without that? Now I really know where my problem is ... thanks a lot, Davinci You stated you are OK with YOU owning weapons, but not OTHERS. QuoteDaVinciDear, if you would go back a bit you'd find out that I have! I am a hunter, I own a lot of wonderful weapons and do not have any phobia of owning weapons.... In the contrary: I feel privileged to own them. And same time would not love too many ppl to own them. too So your phobia is of OTHERS owning weapons. You flat out said it. It is OK for you, in fact it makes you feel "privileged". But you don't want others to own them. Classic, "It is fine for ME, but not for YOU". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #85 March 17, 2007 QuoteSo that would explain why places like Washington, D.C. have such low crime rates, right? (sarcasm) Since there are numerous examples to the contrary, your claim is hollow. No, quite the contrary actually. What Western country proves me wrong? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #86 March 18, 2007 So far those countries with strict gun laws seem to be fairing better. But, times may change. Maybe they are. But I don't think that "faring better" in some area or other is always a good enough reason to limit people's freedoms. I'm sure we'd all fare better in many ways in a bubble. But I really don't want to live like that.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #87 March 18, 2007 Quote But I don't think that "faring better" in some area or other is always a good enough reason to limit people's freedoms. You're in a rapidly disappearing minority. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #88 March 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteSo that would explain why places like Washington, D.C. have such low crime rates, right? (sarcasm) Since there are numerous examples to the contrary, your claim is hollow. No, quite the contrary actually. What Western country proves me wrong? Here are a few related items for you. ----- Myth: The United States has such a high murder rate because Americans own so many guns. Fact: There is no international evidence backing this up. The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's. Finland and Sweden have very different gun ownership rates, but very similar murder rates. Israel, with a higher gun ownership rate than the U.S., has a murder rate 40 percent below Canada's. When one studies all countries rather than just a select few as some do to try and "prove" their point, one sees that there is absolutely no relationship between gun ownership levels and murder rate. ----- What the figures tell is that there is no relationship between percentage of gun ownership and gun crime. Examples: Norway - 32% with guns, 3.6 gun homicide rate. Canada - 29% with guns, 8.4 gun homicide rate. West Germany - 9% with guns, 2.0 gun homicide rate. North Ireland - 8% with guns, 21.0 gun homicide rate. Guns are not the common denominator. ----- Myth: "The rate of firearm death of children 0 to 14 years old is nearly 12 times higher in the U.S. than in 25 other industrialized countries combined." The "25 industrialized countries" claim is derived from a study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) which, with its typical attention to detail on gun-related subjects, incorrectly counted Hong Kong as a country and Kuwait as "industrialized." And it does not count industrialized countries like Russia and Brazil. It's a convenient cherry-picking of selective statistics to suit their purposes. That aside, a simplistic comparison of firearm-related death numbers of various countries is worthless, since firearm ownership levels, national populations, cultural factors and criminal justice systems vary widely from one to the next. Of more value, the CDC study found that the difference between the non-firearm homicide rates of the U.S. and the countries (and cities) surveyed is almost as great as the difference in firearm-related homicide rates, which offers considerable proof that the U.S. problem is one of violence generally, not merely one relating to firearms. ----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #89 March 18, 2007 West Germany? Date on those figures? I'm going to guess the Northern Ireland figure is related to paramilitary activity rather than conventional gun crime. What do you suppose the gun crime rate is in Iraq at present? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #90 March 18, 2007 Sorry for splitting hairs.... but the gun death rate surely must be related to gun ownership.... maybe not Legal gun ownership, but (and I'm just guessing) one needs to own/have a gun to commit that particular crime.... I know, I'me being an arse (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #91 March 19, 2007 QuoteQuoteMight as well ask the families of dead skydivers if loved ones should jump. Poor analogy there. When a skydiver goes in, most of the time it's his own damn fault. When a person gets shot, most of the time it's because a different person shot him. With all do respect quade. I believe most of those that get shot put themselves into a position where that is possible. Now, I fully realize that this is not the case of those you listed here but, I speak from a numbers pespective only. The majority of kids (18 or younger) that get shot are in drug related situations."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #92 March 19, 2007 QuoteThe majority of kids (18 or younger) that get shot are in drug related situations. Darwin lives!Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #93 March 19, 2007 >Why does "brown-nose" comes to mind . . . Your one warning. (Yes, calling someone a brown nose is an attack.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #94 March 19, 2007 Quote Israel, with a higher gun ownership rate than the U.S., has a murder rate 40 percent below Canada's. I wouldn't include this one in your argument. It shows that your source is willing to skew things to make their point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #95 March 19, 2007 Thanks JR, I know we have hashed all those numbers out before. I wasn't trying to bring up and prove a direct correlation between legal gun ownership and murders or gun related crime. There are too many other variables at play. (one for instance is the complete difference in gun ownership between the Swiss and Americans, in that case you simply cannot just look at gun ownership numbers). Fact remains that Western countries with strict gun control laws are fairing better. I would venture to guess that gun control plays a role in that, amongst many other variables. For those only able to think in black and white, that does not mean that I think that strict gun laws are the route to go for the US, or that it would have the same effect in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #96 March 19, 2007 Quotethe gun death rate surely must be related to gun ownership.... maybe not Legal gun ownership, but (and I'm just guessing) one needs to own/have a gun to commit that particular crime... You may be making the mistake of assuming that if there is no legal gun ownership, then there can be no illegal gun ownership. That is false. The gun death rate has no relationship to the general gun ownership rate, as demonstrated by my posting in message number 88. The gun death rate, instead, is related to the number of criminals willing to obtain them and use them. And that factor is not correlated with general gun ownership. You can have low gun ownership, and high gun crime, for example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 March 19, 2007 QuoteSorry for splitting hairs.... but the gun death rate surely must be related to gun ownership.... maybe not Legal gun ownership, but (and I'm just guessing) one needs to own/have a gun to commit that particular crime.... There would be some relation, but it's not a very strong one. Keeping numbers very rounded, there are 100M gun owners in America and 10,000 fatal shootings per year. That's a pretty low ratio: 1 in 10,000. And often one gun is passed around the neighborhood to commit many shootings over time. The criminal population in society is a pretty small portion. If you measured every nation by shootings compared to guns in circulation, the US probably would be low on the list. The US has on order of 50-100 times more guns floating around than the UK. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #98 March 19, 2007 thanks chaps. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #99 March 19, 2007 Of course, the phrase "are threatened by being shot" pretty well implies the threat portion of the confrontation has already passed. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ian84 0 #100 March 20, 2007 Hi John, Having done no actual research into the topic, my feeling is that a school shooting in the UK is unlikely because: 1. The average misguided British teenager has no knowledge of the illegal firearms trade. 2. Even if they did they are unlikely to have the resources to acquire a suitable weapon. Conversely, in the US that same youth could simply walk into Wal-Mart with his pocket money and purchase a fairly effective, easily concealable weapon. That said, someone older with more money and a little criminal knowledge might have a slightly easier time of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites