Should Bush pardon Scooter Libby?

[Andy9o8 2]

Should Bush pardon Scooter Libby if Libby's inevitable appeal fail and his conviction is upheld?

I don't usually suggest answers on polls that I take, and you all know I don't like Bush & Co., but I'm going to say what I think right now:

Yes, I think Bush should pardon Libby. Not because I think White House aides should get away with committing official felonies. I don't. My reason is, I've seen too many examples, with both Repub and Dem administrations alike, of White House aides doing their masters' bidding, and getting into criminal trouble when they're caught, and yet only the aides take the bullet, never the boss. That bothers me.

I think Libby was doing Cheney's (and maybe Bush's, but definitely Cheney's) bidding. And yet we don't see Cheney in the dock, just Libby. That bothers me.

For all those that remember Watergate, several top Nixon aides became convicted felons and went to jail, but Nixon was named only as an "unindicted co-conspirator", and ultimately Ford pardoned him. Well, Nixon's last act in office should have been to pardon those that took the bullets for him; or in the alternative, Ford should have pardoned those Nixon aides, too. I also wonder whether Reagan would have pardoned Ollie North had North's felony conviction not been overturned on appeal. Obviously, we'll never know.

OK, your turn.

[quade 4]

Dude, that is some fucked up logic you're using! Because his master didn't get caught, he should go free?!?

That's like saying folks that commit war crimes are "only following orders." He needs to rot in jail as an example to those people that think it's better to be loyal than to do the right thing.

I don't care how loyal a person is. I don't care who gives you an order. I don't even care if you're in the government and your President tells you to commit treason . . . an illegal order is an illegal order and if a person follows it he's absolutely liable for his actions.

Libby was a lawyer . . he knew what he was getting into. He fucked up, fucked the country and fucked our intelligence sources in other countries. He deserves to rot in jail.

I only wish others had gone down with him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NCclimber 0]

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He fucked up, fucked the country and fucked our intelligence sources in other countries.

How so?

I thought Richard Armitage was the one who first leaked Valerie Plame's employment at the CIA.

[quade 4]

Regardless of who was the first person, Libby definately was a part of the conspiracy. There's no question about it.

He just happens to be the one caught in his own lies.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[NCclimber 0]

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Regardless of who was the first person, Libby definately was a part of the conspiracy. There's no question about it.

He just happens to be the one caught in his own lies.

Armitage was part of this alleged conspiracy?

[Andy9o8 2]

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Dude, that is some fucked up logic you're using!

Have you been talking to my wife?

[DaVinci 0]

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Should Bush pardon Scooter Libby if Libby's inevitable appeal fail and his conviction is upheld?

No. He broke a law and should not get a pass.

If he really was "made" to do it...Let him turn Cheney in for a smaller sentance just like other criminals do.

[TheAnvil 0]

I didn't follow the case that much. If his conviction is upheld, then I don't think he should get a pardon. I can think of a couple of Border Patrol agents in prison now who should get pardons, however.

Not one convicton for breach of national security in the Plame-gate affair. Only for lying. Hmph.

Berger-gate was far more damaging to national security and got 1/10 the press coverage.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Zipp0 1]

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Should Bush pardon Scooter Libby if Libby's inevitable appeal fail and his conviction is upheld?

No. He broke a law and should not get a pass.

If he really was "made" to do it...Let him turn Cheney in for a smaller sentance just like other criminals do.

If the Bushies thought for a minute that he would bring down Cheney, he would have beed dead quite a while ago.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Channman 2]

> Berger-gate was far more damaging to national security and got 1/10 the press coverage.

And got his Security Clearance back prior to entering Hillary's Pres. Camp.

[quade 4]

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Regardless of who was the first person, Libby definately was a part of the conspiracy. There's no question about it.

He just happens to be the one caught in his own lies.

Armitage was part of this alleged conspiracy?

I'm not going to debate facts not in evidence regarding Armitage. Let's leave your attempt to divert the issue for later, but it's entirely clear that Libby lied and, yes, there was a conspiracy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TheAnvil 0]

Please GOD tell me that's not true!

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[NCclimber 0]

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If the Bushies thought for a minute that he would bring down Cheney, he would have beed dead quite a while ago.

You seem to be confusing administrations. Or is there a similarly lengthy list of suspicious deaths of people with direct ties to Dubya?

[NCclimber 0]

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I'm not going to debate facts not in evidence regarding Armitage. Let's leave your attempt to divert the issue for later, but it's entirely clear that Libby lied and, yes, there was a conspiracy.

How ironic.

[DaVinci 0]

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If the Bushies thought for a minute that he would bring down Cheney, he would have beed dead quite a while ago.

I see you are wearing your tin foil hat again.

[quade 4]

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I'm not going to debate facts not in evidence regarding Armitage. Let's leave your attempt to divert the issue for later, but it's entirely clear that Libby lied and, yes, there was a conspiracy.

How ironic.

There's nothing "ironic" about it at all.

If you believe that Libby was the scape goat, then you have to also admit there was more than one person involved. Having more than one person involved means it was a conspiracy.

Duh.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Dude, that is some fucked up logic you're using! Because his master didn't get caught, he should go free?!?

NO, he shouldn't. Scooter was a puppet with someone above him pulling the strings....or he was someone that had ambitions to move into favor with someone higher up. Either way, he made the choice to leak the information. However, I do still believe to this day that he was the fall boy for the VP office. IMO, now that they have this verdict they should go after more of this administration.

As far as the pardon, it will most likely happen in the final weeks of the Bush administration. So Scooter does a year or so in jail and it all becomes a footnote to this administration while the real crooks get away free.

Anyhow, thats my thoughts on this. Tinfoil hat is on!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[warpedskydiver 0]

Why does Sandy Berger go around with printer ink stains on his shorts???

Gee I wonder...

[quade 4]

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Why does Sandy Berger go around with printer ink stains on his shorts???

Gee I wonder...

Yet more off topic diversions.

For shame . . . for shame.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[warpedskydiver 0]

While I do not think libby is due a pardon I do think Berger should be seeing prison time for what he did.

The problem is we have no idea how bad a crime was actually perpetrated against the national security of the US.

[NCclimber 0]

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I'm not going to debate facts not in evidence regarding Armitage. Let's leave your attempt to divert the issue for later, but it's entirely clear that Libby lied and, yes, there was a conspiracy.

How ironic.

There's nothing "ironic" about it at all.

If you believe that Libby was the scape goat, then you have to also admit there was more than one person involved. Having more than one person involved means it was a conspiracy.

Duh.

What evidence is there of a conspiracy? Is there evidence of anything more than Scooter finding himself in the crosshairs of an aggressive and talented special prosecutor, who jammed him up for inconsistencies in his recollection?

Did Ken Starr get Clinton on any of the matters for which he was being investigated? Seems more like Starr stumbled onto an irrelevant matter that Clinton tried to hide.

Was Martha Stewart convicted of insider trading? Or was it another case of unwise CYA, irrelevant to the initial inquiry?

All of this cases seem like examples of prosecutors pushing someone into stumbling because they can't make a case regarding the initial suspicions.

[dorbie 0]

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Regardless of who was the first person, Libby definately was a part of the conspiracy. There's no question about it.

He just happens to be the one caught in his own lies.

That is bollocks.

Armitage was not pro war and not in any conspiracy

Why can't you accept the facts. Are you so invested in your own venal fantasy that the mundane reality is no longer acceptable?

[billvon 3,095]

>That is bollocks.
>Armitage was not pro war and not in any conspiracy

Quade didn't say that; NCclimber did.

[Andy9o8 2]

So far 5 other people besides me have voted yes. I wanted to stimulate discussion. (I certainly stimulated Quade!) Waiting for the others to say why they voted yes.

[Zipp0 1]

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If the Bushies thought for a minute that he would bring down Cheney, he would have beed dead quite a while ago.

You seem to be confusing administrations. Or is there a similarly lengthy list of suspicious deaths of people with direct ties to Dubya?

There sure is:

Bush Went AWOL


Bodies


Sid Adger
Mr. Adger, a Houston oil supply company executive and Bush family friend, died in 1996 of unknown causes. Adger was the mysterious businessman who approached General James Rose and asked him to help George W. Bush avoid Vietnam by recommending him for a pilot position with the National Guard.

General James Rose
General Rose recommended George W. Bush for a pilot position with the Texas National Guard. He died of unknown causes in 1993. He was immediately buried and no autopsy was performed.

Lt. Colonel William Harris, Jr.
Lt. Col. William Harris was one of two commanding officers who could not perform George W. Bush's annual evaluation covering the year from May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973. They stated in their filing that "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report." Fortunately for George W. Bush, Lt. Col. Harris is not here to verify his 1973 statement. He's dead.

Lt. Colonel Jerry B. Killian
Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian was another of George W. Bush's commanding officers. He cannot testify in a court of law as to George W. Bush's dereliction of his sworn duty. Lt. Col. Killian is dead.

James Downing Aalund
Mr. Aalund's name is the first on a long list of young Texans who died in Vietnam. These young men did not have influential fathers to pull the strings necessary to get them into the Texas Air National Guard. If they had been so lucky, they would surely have fulfilled their responsibilities to the ANG, if only out of gratitude that they did not have to die, thousands of miles away in a strange land. They surely would not have disappeared from duty for over a year, as did our fearless leader George W. Bush.



Enron


Bodies


J. Clifford Baxter
Found dead in his car, shot in the head. Mr. Baxter was vice chairman of Enron Corp. when he resigned in May 2001. Enron has been hot copy lately with the revelation that they were the largest campaign contributors for George W. Bush. Was J. Clifford Baxter a potential witness to Bush foreknowledge of their wrongdoings? His death was ruled a suicide.

Charles Dana Rice
He was the senior vice president and treasurer of El Paso Corp., an energy corporation swept up in the recent energy scandal. Two months after the "suicide" of Enron executive Clifford Baxter, in the midst of questions about the accounting practices of El Paso Corp., Charles Rice was found dead of a gunshot wound to the head. His death was ruled a suicide.

James Daniel Watkins
His body was found on December 1, 2001 in the Pike National Forest in Colorado, a gunshot wound to the head. Mr. Watkins was a consultant for Arthur Andersen, the accounting firm for Enron. He disappeared on November 13 after he left work. He was described as a devoted family man who always called home if he were going to be late. Officials initially said that the death was suspicious, but have changed their tune and have ruled his death a suicide.

Commerce Secretary Ron Brown
He died in a plane crash on April 3, 1996. Was Ron Brown the first Enron body? In 1995 Enron officials accompanied Brown on a trade mission to India, and to Russia in 1994. Speculation among right-wing whackos suggests that our last duly-elected President, Bill Clinton, was somehow responsible for his death, but we wonder: was Secretary Brown privy to information that would conclusively link George W. Bush to Enron greed and corruption? Charles Meissner, Assistant Commerce Secretary, also died in this crash.

Jake Horton
He was the senior ice-president of Gulf Power, a subsidiary of Southern Company, a cohort of Enron in the energy industry, and a major contributer to the Bush agenda. According to reporter Gregory Palast http://GregPalast.com and http://www.guardian.co.uk/enron/story/0,11337,643422,00.html , Horton knew of the company's appalling accounting practices, and "... had no doubt about its illegal campaign contributions to Florida politicans - he'd made the payments himself. In April of 1989 Horton decided to come clean with state officials, and reserved the company jet to go confront company officials. Ten minutes after takeoff the jet exploded.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.