billvon 3,080 #1 February 27, 2007 From dailytech.com: ----------------------------------------------- Lockheed's F-22 Raptor Gets Zapped by International Date Line February 26, 2007 10:28 AM Six Lockheed F-22 Raptors have Y2K-esque glitch of their own over the Pacific Lockheed’s F-22 Raptor is the most advanced fighter in the world with its stealth capabilities, advanced radar, state of the art weapons systems and ultra-efficient turbofans which allow the F-22 to "supercruise" at supersonic speeds without an afterburner. The Raptor has gone up against the best that the US Air Force and Navy has to offer taking out F-15s, F-16s and F/A-18 Super Hornets during simulated war games in Alaska. The Raptor-led "Blue Air" team was able to rack up an impressive 241-to-2 kill ratio during the exercise against the "Red Air" threat -- the two kills on the blue team were from the 30-year old F-15 teammates and not the new Raptors. But while the simulated war games were a somewhat easy feat for the Raptor, something more mundane was able to cripple six aircraft on a 12 to 15 hours flight from Hawaii to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa, Japan. The U.S. Air Force's mighty Raptor was felled by the International Date Line (IDL). When the group of Raptors crossed over the IDL, multiple computer systems crashed on the planes. Everything from fuel subsystems, to navigation and partial communications were completely taken offline. Numerous attempts were made to "reboot" the systems to no avail. Luckily for the Raptors, there were no weather issues that day so visibility was not a problem. Also, the Raptors had their refueling tankers as guide dogs to "carry" them back to safety. "They needed help. Had they gotten separated from their tankers or had the weather been bad, they had no attitude reference. They had no communications or navigation," said Retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd. "They would have turned around and probably could have found the Hawaiian Islands. But if the weather had been bad on approach, there could have been real trouble.” "The tankers brought them back to Hawaii. This could have been real serious. It certainly could have been real serious if the weather had been bad," Shepperd continued. "It turned out OK. It was fixed in 48 hours. It was a computer glitch in the millions of lines of code, somebody made an error in a couple lines of the code and everything goes." Luckily for the pilots behind the controls of the Raptors, they were not involved in a combat situation. Had they been, it could have been a disastrous folly by the U.S. Air Force to have to admit that their aircraft which cost $125+ million USD apiece were knocked out of the sky due to a few lines of computer code. "And luckily this time we found out about it before combat. We got it fixed with tiger teams in about 48 hours and the airplanes were flying again, completed their deployment. But this could have been real serious in combat," said Shepperd. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeterB 0 #2 February 28, 2007 A classical example of running tests in a different environment than the real life situation. Ran tests with some hardware that wasn't used on the raptor to save money. When they used the real thing the error could be reproduced. That said, with the millions of lines of code it's pretty amazing it works as well as it does. There was as an early crash landing caused by pilot induced oscillation but that's not unique to the raptor - happened on Sweden's 4th generation JAS-39 Gripen as well. Landing crash Stockholm crash Same pilot in both crashes. Survived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #3 February 28, 2007 Too bad we need to relearn the lessons of the past, (next-to-last paragraph): http://www.f20a.com/f20ins.htm"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #4 February 28, 2007 There is a DST patch in work to fix this. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #5 February 28, 2007 So... All Iran has to do to prevent a US Air Strike is to keep changing their clocks & calendars?... We'll know when Ahmadinejad's next speech says: "It's Daylight-Saving... No it's not, it's GMT!... It's The Julian Calendar... No, it's the Chinese Calendar... Actually it's a secret Calendar of our own devising and today is February 31st!... Crash, you lackeys of The Great Satan!!!" Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 February 28, 2007 So that's why Iran uses a different calendar... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #7 February 28, 2007 The military is responsible for a huge amount of technology that is used each day from super glue to international travel and communications. In this respect the military is good and a small fuck up like this doesn't mean they are incompetent. Like I used to say "the man who makes no mistakes, does not usually make anything". The real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. my $0.02 Rhys"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #8 February 28, 2007 QuoteIn this respect the military is good and a small fuck up like this doesn't mean they are incompetent. I would venture to suggest that by far the majority of the software used on the aeroplanes was developed by civilian contractors and not by the military. Where it seems the military have failed was to ensure or carry out proper testing. I seem to remember reading somewhere that something like 70% of the first Space Shuttle's 'error handling' software routines were never excercised or tested properly. (Disclaimer - this could have been told to us young (at the time) software developers to impress upon us the importance of properly testing every line of code in every routine for every possible condition. Crossing the IDL is such a condition!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
willard 0 #9 February 28, 2007 I'm not up on computer programming, so this may sound like a dumb question. How does crossing an imaginary line affect the computer systems on an aircraft? Would the aircraft's systems use GPS to somehow reset any onboard clocks to local date? Seems the training/test flights did their job in finding the glitch before the aircraft was in an actual combat situation. Only so much can be done in a lab, the rest has to wait for real-world experience. Glad to see everyone made back safely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #10 February 28, 2007 No they will follow the strategies laid out by the great MFO (Mork from Ork) They will all hide and act like nobody is home Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #11 February 28, 2007 >Would the aircraft's systems use GPS to somehow reset any onboard >clocks to local date? That's likely the problem. The GPS updated the date and some routine that calculates elapsed time suddenly calculated a negative number. If it was a 16 bit integer, then -1 is also represented by 65535, and other routines may have read that number as 65535 days elapsed since the last time they did their thing (measured fuel consumption, calculated remaining time to go, whatever.) It is likely that most routines have never been tested when they were told that over 100 years have elapsed since their last call, and so a lot of bugs showed up instantly. That's just one possibility. A lot of things may have happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #12 February 28, 2007 ...because every aircraft designed from the ground up NEVER has growing pains... Bill, you're an engineer...you of all people should know this...Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vortexring 0 #13 March 11, 2007 The atomic clock updated the date. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #14 March 11, 2007 In most places the IDL also corresponds with WGS-84 datum wrap of +/- 180 degrees longitude which would be key information throughout their avionics systems. I'm septical about the whole "local time" story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #15 March 11, 2007 >Bill, you're an engineer...you of all people should know this... Uh, yeah, my first job out of college was _fixing_ some of those growing pains! In the EF111, though, a SW problem meant that the UHF radio failed, or a jammer went off-line. Today a software problem can affect navigation, communication, or even flight controls - or all three at once. So the potential for disaster is much higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest 1010 #16 March 11, 2007 Quote>Bill, you're an engineer...you of all people should know this... >even flight controls aren't modern aircraft now inherently unstable (ie, makes them maneuverable, agile, more fuel efficient) so that they need computers (software) to stay in the air? I thought that was the case with the F22. >In the EF111 but my real question is - did they ever find why the F-111's fell out of the sky? The tv show I saw on them a couple years ago made it seem like a big unsolved mystery, was wondering if that was really the case, or is it the cause well know and just not exactly provable or politically acceptable. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nanook 1 #17 March 11, 2007 QuoteThe real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. I promise you this isn't the U.S. military. We don't control opinions or thoughts, we control responsibility and accountability._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #18 March 11, 2007 QuoteThe military is responsible for a huge amount of technology that is used each day from super glue to international travel and communications. In this respect the military is good and a small fuck up like this doesn't mean they are incompetent. Like I used to say "the man who makes no mistakes, does not usually make anything". The real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. my $0.02 Rhys Whose uniform did you wear, or are you just getting talking points from someone else?Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #19 March 11, 2007 Quote...ever find why the F-111's fell out of the sky? The tv show I saw on them a couple years ago made it seem like a big unsolved mystery... No mystery. SImple reason was that the 'Vark was a piece of $hit, particularly the promised "K" variant which failed on cost, range, performance and payload, but was at least consistent. The design team on the TSR-2 Knew this more than 4 decades ago. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #20 March 12, 2007 QuoteThe real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. Sounds like New Zealand's military is really screwed up in a huge way. In my military, things would crash to a stop if people felt that way. Hope you guys get that fixed. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #21 March 12, 2007 I have never been in the military but I was jumping with air force and army jumpers in Australia. From the stories they were telling me, it seemed as though you earn your rank first and then people listen to you! I would think that was widespread in all military environments because of the pecking order! roosters don't like to be told what to do by rookies! that is how life works in a pecking order is it not?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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warpedskydiver 0 #10 February 28, 2007 No they will follow the strategies laid out by the great MFO (Mork from Ork) They will all hide and act like nobody is home Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #11 February 28, 2007 >Would the aircraft's systems use GPS to somehow reset any onboard >clocks to local date? That's likely the problem. The GPS updated the date and some routine that calculates elapsed time suddenly calculated a negative number. If it was a 16 bit integer, then -1 is also represented by 65535, and other routines may have read that number as 65535 days elapsed since the last time they did their thing (measured fuel consumption, calculated remaining time to go, whatever.) It is likely that most routines have never been tested when they were told that over 100 years have elapsed since their last call, and so a lot of bugs showed up instantly. That's just one possibility. A lot of things may have happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #12 February 28, 2007 ...because every aircraft designed from the ground up NEVER has growing pains... Bill, you're an engineer...you of all people should know this...Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #13 March 11, 2007 The atomic clock updated the date. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #14 March 11, 2007 In most places the IDL also corresponds with WGS-84 datum wrap of +/- 180 degrees longitude which would be key information throughout their avionics systems. I'm septical about the whole "local time" story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #15 March 11, 2007 >Bill, you're an engineer...you of all people should know this... Uh, yeah, my first job out of college was _fixing_ some of those growing pains! In the EF111, though, a SW problem meant that the UHF radio failed, or a jammer went off-line. Today a software problem can affect navigation, communication, or even flight controls - or all three at once. So the potential for disaster is much higher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #16 March 11, 2007 Quote>Bill, you're an engineer...you of all people should know this... >even flight controls aren't modern aircraft now inherently unstable (ie, makes them maneuverable, agile, more fuel efficient) so that they need computers (software) to stay in the air? I thought that was the case with the F22. >In the EF111 but my real question is - did they ever find why the F-111's fell out of the sky? The tv show I saw on them a couple years ago made it seem like a big unsolved mystery, was wondering if that was really the case, or is it the cause well know and just not exactly provable or politically acceptable. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nanook 1 #17 March 11, 2007 QuoteThe real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. I promise you this isn't the U.S. military. We don't control opinions or thoughts, we control responsibility and accountability._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #18 March 11, 2007 QuoteThe military is responsible for a huge amount of technology that is used each day from super glue to international travel and communications. In this respect the military is good and a small fuck up like this doesn't mean they are incompetent. Like I used to say "the man who makes no mistakes, does not usually make anything". The real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. my $0.02 Rhys Whose uniform did you wear, or are you just getting talking points from someone else?Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #19 March 11, 2007 Quote...ever find why the F-111's fell out of the sky? The tv show I saw on them a couple years ago made it seem like a big unsolved mystery... No mystery. SImple reason was that the 'Vark was a piece of $hit, particularly the promised "K" variant which failed on cost, range, performance and payload, but was at least consistent. The design team on the TSR-2 Knew this more than 4 decades ago. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #20 March 12, 2007 QuoteThe real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. Sounds like New Zealand's military is really screwed up in a huge way. In my military, things would crash to a stop if people felt that way. Hope you guys get that fixed. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #21 March 12, 2007 I have never been in the military but I was jumping with air force and army jumpers in Australia. From the stories they were telling me, it seemed as though you earn your rank first and then people listen to you! I would think that was widespread in all military environments because of the pecking order! roosters don't like to be told what to do by rookies! that is how life works in a pecking order is it not?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
nanook 1 #17 March 11, 2007 QuoteThe real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. I promise you this isn't the U.S. military. We don't control opinions or thoughts, we control responsibility and accountability._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #18 March 11, 2007 QuoteThe military is responsible for a huge amount of technology that is used each day from super glue to international travel and communications. In this respect the military is good and a small fuck up like this doesn't mean they are incompetent. Like I used to say "the man who makes no mistakes, does not usually make anything". The real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. my $0.02 Rhys Whose uniform did you wear, or are you just getting talking points from someone else?Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #19 March 11, 2007 Quote...ever find why the F-111's fell out of the sky? The tv show I saw on them a couple years ago made it seem like a big unsolved mystery... No mystery. SImple reason was that the 'Vark was a piece of $hit, particularly the promised "K" variant which failed on cost, range, performance and payload, but was at least consistent. The design team on the TSR-2 Knew this more than 4 decades ago. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 March 12, 2007 QuoteThe real problem with 'Modern Military' with all its fandangel bits and pieces is the old school, 'don't think just do what I say', feudal system. Collective thought is the best way to move forward, but in the military you could be a professor being told that 2+3=6 and you might have to agree or be punished. Sounds like New Zealand's military is really screwed up in a huge way. In my military, things would crash to a stop if people felt that way. Hope you guys get that fixed. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #21 March 12, 2007 I have never been in the military but I was jumping with air force and army jumpers in Australia. From the stories they were telling me, it seemed as though you earn your rank first and then people listen to you! I would think that was widespread in all military environments because of the pecking order! roosters don't like to be told what to do by rookies! that is how life works in a pecking order is it not?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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