Bush asaults working families

[Lucky... 0]

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So you're making the argument based upon the unemployed or transitional workers who go to jobs w/o medical coverage. Could we be a little more obscure?

A little more than half of all workers in the private sector receive healthcare benefits. The rest either pay for it themselves (at a rate typically much higher that corporations are charged), go without or get what they can through the government..

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost

Great start, now put the data together and make an argument. I mean this w/o sarcasm, what is your argument?

[Zipp0 1]

I would NEVER take a job that did not include health benefits. To me, that's just a part of the 'career 'package'. I would take a job paying $25,000 a year with health care over one paying $40,000 with none. (and I have in the past)

Don't most of you people expect health care with a full time job? If not, you should. Until recently, nearly all full time jobs included a health plan. Now they just want to add it to the bottom line so the executives can get richer.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[NCclimber 0]

Lucky,

My point was that this type of set up would benefit more than just an obscure portion of the middle and lower classes, which is what you seemed to be saying. It would basically treat everyone the same.

Zippo,
Check the stats. Slightly more than half of private sector employees get health benefits.

[kallend 2,150]

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I would NEVER take a job that did not include health benefits. To me, that's just a part of the 'career 'package'. I would take a job paying $25,000 a year with health care over one paying $40,000 with none. (and I have in the past)

Don't most of you people expect health care with a full time job? If not, you should. Until recently, nearly all full time jobs included a health plan. Now they just want to add it to the bottom line so the executives can get richer.

Unfortunately Americans are brainwashed from childhood to think that healthcare is a privilege, and that suggesting otherwise is a commie plot. Keeps up the MD's incomes.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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Unfortunately Americans are brainwashed from childhood to think that healthcare is a privilege, and that suggesting otherwise is a commie plot.

Please tell us when healthcare became a right of every American (whether we pay for it or not).

[billvon 3,120]

>Please tell us when healthcare became a right of every American

When we decided as a people that it wasn't OK to let a stranger die after being hit by a car because she couldn't pay for the ER right there and then. Pretty much everything else stems from that basic decision (which, I think, was a good one.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Versus Kelpdiver calling me stupid w/o citations or a reasonable argument.

So it's reasonable for people on COBRA to premiums with taxable dollars? Stupid is claiming this doesn't affect anyone. I gave you a very simple example - mine - and you seem to have no response to it.

Seems a bit heartless, really. You claim this is an upper class benefit, but those on COBRA tend to be the laid off.

I've worked at *many* companies in the great SF/Silicon Valley and I don't think any of them offered health benefits that would exceed the 7500/15000 threshold. Few companies are paying the whole family cost - typically it's 75-100% of the employee and 75-0% of the rest.

Now if that value was never altered like with the AMT thresholds, it would become a problem in due course.

[NCclimber 0]

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>Please tell us when healthcare became a right of every American

When we decided as a people that it wasn't OK to let a stranger die after being hit by a car because she couldn't pay for the ER right there and then. Pretty much everything else stems from that basic decision (which, I think, was a good one.)

When was that?

[billvon 3,120]

>When was that?

I guess when we realized that we felt compassion.

[NCclimber 0]

Taking care of those in immediate need of care has always been a part of our culture. Admitting a car wreck victim to the ER is a far cry from healthcare for all... free for many. Additionally, a given hospital's choice to admit someone in need is a far cry from mandatory care for all.

Using the exception to rationalize what you think should be the norm is just a way of avoiding my previous question.

Healthcare is not a right.

[wmw999 2,589]

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So it's reasonable for people on COBRA to premiums with taxable dollars?

I believe you can pay COBRA premiums with Health Care Savings Account money if you set it up. That makes it non-taxable.

I don't know if that would be the case under the new plan.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 3,120]

>Admitting a car wreck victim to the ER is a far cry from healthcare for all... free for many.

It has that effect in this country. People go to the ER, claim an immediate problem, are seen, and then don't pay. As a result of this (and of several other ways we provide care for free) we pay MORE to the government for our healthcare than countries with socialized medicine do - even though our infant mortality rates are higher and our average lifespans are lower than those countries.

>Additionally, a given hospital's choice to admit someone in need is a
>far cry from mandatory care for all.

Again, it has the same effect. It's just more expensive and less controlled than a formalized program would be. And it all proceeds from the fact that we are not willing to let poor people die - which is a good thing in my book.

[Zipp0 1]

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Healthcare is not a right.

It is in most modern industrialized nations. That's why the USA lags in life expectancy behind Europe, Canada, Japan, etc.

And it seems to me it IS a right. If they cannot let the uninsured die after a car wreck, what else but a right can you call it? you can't be turned away if you are having a heart attack or a stroke, or chest pains, or bleeding. Seems like a right to me.

Maybe you can't get botox and zoloft prescriptions, but it seems like the rich have more depression problems anyway.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[rehmwa 2]

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That's why the USA lags in life expectancy behind Europe, Canada, Japan, etc.

I thought it was due to too much processed junk foods. That and not enough chain smoking.

That and sulfites in our wine.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Zipp0 1]

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Zippo,
Check the stats. Slightly more than half of private sector employees get health benefits.

Well then, it should be easy to get it close to 100% then. My pont was that ALL people should demand health benefits from their employers, and form unions and strike if denied.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[Zipp0 1]

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That's why the USA lags in life expectancy behind Europe, Canada, Japan, etc.

I thought it was due to too much processed junk foods. That and not enough chain smoking.

That and sulfites in our wine.

I'm not sure how to take this reply.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[rehmwa 2]

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Well then, it should be easy to get it close to 100% then. My pont was that ALL people should demand health benefits from their employers, and form unions and strike if denied.

Agree with your pont that health benefits are a must (for full time work).

Another option in addition to the whole "Union/Strike" thing, is just going elsewhere where they have good health benefits.

A bad company losing all employees will drive change faster than adding another corrupt power structure that further exploits those same employees.

Quitting is a much stronger statement than picketing - any day of the week.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm not sure how to take this reply.

simple

It's very important to get the sulfites out. Makes the wine taste better.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

It seems the entitlement mentality is no longer exclusive to the lower class.

Now, all socio-economic groups have their share of - "I want mine. It's my right. Make the rich pay for my free ride".

[rehmwa 2]

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Now, all socio-economic groups have their share of - "I want mine. It's my right. Make the rich pay for my free ride".

You make a solid point. And now I agree, the rich SHOULD pay for some of my stuff. Especially for any subscription to any newsletter you might put out.

How do we get them to pay? Is there any way to accelerate this process?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lucky... 0]

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Taking care of those in immediate need of care has always been a part of our culture. Admitting a car wreck victim to the ER is a far cry from healthcare for all... free for many. Additionally, a given hospital's choice to admit someone in need is a far cry from mandatory care for all.

Using the exception to rationalize what you think should be the norm is just a way of avoiding my previous question.

Healthcare is not a right.

I see your point, helping a ca wreck victim is differtn than helping a cancer patient. That makes tons of sense, we eill just let teh latter die becuase they aren't going to die immediately

[rehmwa 2]

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we eill just let teh latter die becuase they aren't going to die immediately

That's sounds like something I read in a Ross Perot pamphlet one time. Except he also wanted to harvest their organs and dehydrate what's left for commercial uses.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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So it's reasonable for people on COBRA to premiums with taxable dollars?

I believe you can pay COBRA premiums with Health Care Savings Account money if you set it up. That makes it non-taxable.

found out there:
Can I pay my health insurance premiums with an HSA?
You can only use your HSA to pay health insurance premiums if you are collecting Federal or State unemployment benefits, or you have COBRA continuation coverage through a former employer.

Interesting to know, however of limited application. In my case, no HSA at the new W2 employer, and the limits on the HSAs usually is too low to be more than a partial solution. And for the laid off collecting unemployment, it would only apply till the end of the year, which could be as little as a month, of course.

Simpler just to eliminate the inequity.

The HSA, otoh, is far more complex than it seems like it ought to be. The use it or lose it, the non portability between jobs. It was supposed to help those with more limited access to work based health insurance, but is more suitable for those with long term stability, not those who change employers or employee status often.

[Zipp0 1]

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It seems the entitlement mentality is no longer exclusive to the lower class.

Now, all socio-economic groups have their share of - "I want mine. It's my right. Make the rich pay for my free ride".

The entitlement mentality is alive in well among the rich - corporate welfare, tax cuts, stock options, golden parachutes, huge pensions, bonuses despite performance, etc.

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Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[kelpdiver 2]

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It's very important to get the sulfites out. Makes the wine taste better.

unlikely. It will perish quickly, and tend to smell worse too.

Virtually all wine has sulfites.