Officers Respond To Wrong Address; Homeowner Shot

[warpedskydiver 0]

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>If he pointed it at an officer who did not identify himself? Big problem for both of them.

?? You would not point a gun at an intruder with a gun who acted threatening and did not identify himself?

You misunderstand what I am saying, I was stating that would cause either a shooting or a cop arresting someone for the police officers failure.

Some states do have laws requiring the threat of death or injury before you can point it at someone.

I have never pointed a weapon at someone I did not plan on shooting if needed.

The last time it happened I was on my property and was threatened.

[DaVinci 0]

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I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession.

As are yours.

He is trained to deal with violent situations...You are not. This is a violent situation, he knows more about them and has trained them more than you.

So I would think HE knows more about these kind of situations than you.

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Unlike the military, most of us are not trained to have adversarial relationships with the people we interact with on a daily basis, nor do we want such relationships. I certainly have never had an adversarial relationship with a cop, nor do I intend to start now.

You think this homeowner was trained to have adversarial relationships?

GQ has some valid points...Before I say the cop or the guy is totally at fault, I will wait for more info.

But the cop was at the wrong address. It seems pretty clear the cop did not show up with lights or with sirens.

The guy did not call out that he was armed. In a tactical situation it is not always a great idea to let the bad guy know where you are. The cop gets paid to take those kinds of chances, the homeowner does not.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Yep I got into a discussion of this with some cops online, one was polite enough to try and explain that cops can kill anyone they want if they feel threatened, another told me he was really wanting to pull be over and shoot my dog then me.

I guess my point is there are ALOT of good cops, and they are forced to work with some of the worst dregs of society including some real mental cases that have badges.


The "can't wait to shoot someone syndrome" has permeated the police forces of many communties.

I witnessed another cop telling the rest that if they go to the wrong house and shoot a guys dog they may have signed a death warrant for every responding police officer. They turned on him like Judas.

I wish my police firends could have witnessed it, maybe if they were there there would be some immediate jobs openings.

[kallend 2,150]

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I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession.

As are yours.

He is trained to deal with violent situations...You are not. This is a violent situation, he knows more about them and has trained them more than you.

.

How is a cop coming to someone's house (original statement was "You see police officers approaching your house.. ") a "violent situation"?

If a cop came to my house I wouldn't consider it a "violent situation", nor would I feel the need to greet him with my hands up.

If a cop came to your house, would your first thought be "This is a violent situation, I'd better put my hands up"?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NCclimber 0]

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I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession.

As are yours.

He is trained to deal with violent situations...You are not. This is a violent situation, he knows more about them and has trained them more than you.

How is a cop coming to someone's house (original statement was "You see police officers approaching your house.. ") a "violent situation"?

If a cop came to my house I wouldn't consider it a "violent situation", nor would I feel the need to greet him with my hands up.

If a cop came to your house, would your first thought be "This is a violent situation, I'd better put my hands up"?

Kallend,
He's already clarified that he "was gearing that statement more towards this particular situation."

It's been reported that the homeowner, who lived out in the country, heard a loud bang and screeching outside. It was 8:30 at night.

While "violent situation" is a bit of an overstatement, This situation was definitely more inflamed than seeing a cop strolling up to your front door in the daytime.

It's about context.

[kallend 2,150]

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I think that your view of things is distorted by your profession.

As are yours.

He is trained to deal with violent situations...You are not. This is a violent situation, he knows more about them and has trained them more than you.

How is a cop coming to someone's house (original statement was "You see police officers approaching your house.. ") a "violent situation"?

If a cop came to my house I wouldn't consider it a "violent situation", nor would I feel the need to greet him with my hands up.

If a cop came to your house, would your first thought be "This is a violent situation, I'd better put my hands up"?

Kallend,
He's already clarified that he "was gearing that statement more towards this particular situation."

It's been reported that the homeowner, who lived out in the country, heard a loud bang and screeching outside. It was 8:30 at night.

While "violent situation" is a bit of an overstatement, This situation was definitely more inflamed than seeing a cop strolling up to your front door in the daytime.

It's about context.

Yes, it is, and the context is that "the homeowner" apparently did NOT know it was a cop. Hence your statement is irrelevant to a discussion about how to approach a cop coming to your house.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

I'm surprised that this is not eliciting more of a response here in Fresno. And it may have had three Fresno city police officers not been wounded on Monday by a shooter.

While I am not in the know for much of the Sheriff's department issues (the only Sheriff's officers I know are bailiffs) had it been a Fresno PD issue, we'd have seen the chief on camera a lot.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Sad huh? mind your own business, get woken to a loud noise, try protecting your family, get shot by a cop on your property for no reason at all.

I think this cop has some 'splainin to do.

He needs to be fired at the very least, sure mistakes happen but covering something up by lying and you will be seeing a federal judge, from the defendants table.

[lawrocket 3]

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The "can't wait to shoot someone syndrome" has permeated the police forces of many communties.

And you will hear plenty of cops (a few of whom I know rather well) who will say that, yes, indeed, this is the case. One cop I know had to kill a guy a few years ago. What bothered him most was reaction from cops who either wished they were him or viewed him with scorn because they didn't think he was one of the killer types.

Police departments are deeply divided on this issue. Certainly cops like that exist, and I believe that one or two local police departments will have a consent decree within the next five years.

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Sad huh? mind your own business, get woken to a loud noise, try protecting your family, get shot by a cop on your property for no reason at all.

I think this cop has some 'splainin to do.

He needs to be fired at the very least, sure mistakes happen but covering something up by lying and you will be seeing a federal judge, from the defendants table.

We don't know what the hell happened. It appears that a sad sequence of small errors led to this.

From officer's point of view:
1) Get dispatched to check on a 911 hangup.
2) Go to address to see what is going on
3) Guy comes out with gun.
4) Fearing safety of self and others, neutralizes risk.

From citizen's point of view:
1) Hears noise and sees lights outside;
2) Gets handgun and goes out to investigate;
3) Does not recognize cop.
4) Gets shot.

Mistakes were made on both sides. Had the cop gotten the right address, this wouldn't have happened. Had the farmer stayed inside, it probably wouldn't have happened.

Both of them subjectively felt threatened. Both of them may have reasonably felt threatened.

I think this is something that needs to be viewed from both individuals before attaching blame, but other lessons shold be learned by the police and the general public to avoid these situations.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

Both of them subjectively felt threatened. Both of them may have reasonably felt threatened.
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and the one with the most training hits his target

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Fast 0]

I personally have a problem with the fact that as a law abiding citizen some of you expect me to go around treating the police as if they will shoot and kill me at the slightest hint of danger and to be prepared for that I ought to be 100% submissive.

You can argue about semantics and who is at fault, but the bottom line is that the situation is pretty sad no matter how you look at it.


The other thing to keep in mind is that, being a police officer is a personal decision much like skydiving. If you want to get into that line of work you need to be able to accept the risks that come along with it. If you can't handle that, don't sign up to be a police officer / member of the military / etc.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[lawrocket 3]

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The other thing to keep in mind is that, being a police officer is a personal decision much like skydiving. If you want to get into that line of work you need to be able to accept the risks that come along with it. If you can't handle that, don't sign up to be a police officer / member of the military / etc.

They do handle the risks. Does that mean that they should not seek to mitigate the risks?

This apparently isn't a story of a cop gone wacko. This isn't Dirty Harry out there going after Scorpio.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

>and the one with the most training hits his target.

Perhaps. But if one of the lessons of this is "be a good enough shot so you can kill the cop first" then we have some very serious underlying problems with how we deal with police and weapons in this country.

[DaVinci 0]

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How is a cop coming to someone's house (original statement was "You see police officers approaching your house.. ") a "violent situation"?

Simple...In this situation NO ONE saw it was a cop. A guy sitting in his house heard a load noise at 8:30 PM and he lives in the country. So he grabbed a gun and went to look. A Cop *at the wrong address* is investigating a 911 hang up.

So both the cop and the guy thought something was up. Both were armed and it clearly was a violent situation since one guy got shot.

You even admitted that this guy didn't know it was a cop:

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Yes, it is, and the context is that "the homeowner" apparently did NOT know it was a cop. Hence your statement is irrelevant to a discussion about how to approach a cop coming to your house.

His statement is not irrelevant. There are plenty of cases where cops are in plain sight and people react in less than ideal ways.

But in this case both parites thought they were in violent situations. I think he knows more about these than you...Unless you were that bouncer in "Roadhouse"

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If a cop came to my house I wouldn't consider it a "violent situation", nor would I feel the need to greet him with my hands up.

If you knew it was a cop. If you heard strange noises it sure could be.

And what is wrong with making sure the cop can see your hands and not making any sudden moves around police? It is just flat out polite and smart. Just like if you are pulled over it would be smart to:

1. Pull over far enough do the cop is not exposed to traffic.

2. Turn the dome light on, turn off the radio and have your hands on the wheel in clear view.

3. When asked to get your ID tell them where you are looking and ask if it is OK to go to the glove box.

Show them some kindness and you may not get a ticket.

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If a cop came to your house, would your first thought be "This is a violent situation, I'd better put my hands up"?

Depends on how they came in...did they knock with a fist, or a battering ram?

If a cop comes to my house they will find me making slow movements with my hands in clear sight. Before I reach for anything I will tell them what I am doing and ask if it is OK.

Having pulled security the last thing you want to encounter is a guy making fast moves and trying to hide his hands....Those things get people shot.

[DaVinci 0]

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I think this cop has some 'splainin to do.

He needs to be fired at the very least, sure mistakes happen but covering something up by lying and you will be seeing a federal judge, from the defendants table.

The cop screwed up by not showing up with his lights..But I cannot blame him for taking the shot if he thought he was in danger.

I don't see where you think he should be fired? Do you know something more than what we have seen so far?

[DaVinci 0]

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I personally have a problem with the fact that as a law abiding citizen some of you expect me to go around treating the police as if they will shoot and kill me at the slightest hint of danger and to be prepared for that I ought to be 100% submissive.

It is about being polite and not agravating the situation. If the police are talking to you it means something is already wrong. They deal with problem after problem on a daily basis and the last thing they need is someone thinking they have the right to yell or treat the police like crap making sudden moves.

YOU don't have to do what they say. But I will. Also if you get in trouble don't expect sympathy from me if you are causing problems and refusing to follow the cops directions.

[Fast 0]

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The other thing to keep in mind is that, being a police officer is a personal decision much like skydiving. If you want to get into that line of work you need to be able to accept the risks that come along with it. If you can't handle that, don't sign up to be a police officer / member of the military / etc.

They do handle the risks. Does that mean that they should not seek to mitigate the risks?

This apparently isn't a story of a cop gone wacko. This isn't Dirty Harry out there going after Scorpio.

Clearly in this case the risks were not properly mitigated and the situation devolved into the cop having to shoot someone. I am firmly in the same camp with people who belive I have a right to protect my person and property.

I wont comment on who should and should not be punished in this case, because all the facts aren't known. The basic understanding however is that the cop didn't do everything he could have done or this situation would have come to a much better conclusion.

I don't like the idea that people are putting forward that I should be afraid of the police. That might work ok for me if I lived in a different country, but in this country things ought not be that way.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[dorbie 0]

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I personally have a problem with the fact that as a law abiding citizen some of you expect me to go around treating the police as if they will shoot and kill me at the slightest hint of danger and to be prepared for that I ought to be 100% submissive.

This is the way police officers are trained in the US. They are shown every nasty video of traffic stops gone bad (cops being overpowered and bundled into trunks never to be seen again) and are trained to treat every potentially threatening situation as if the worst might happen at any moment and to guard against it.

They are not fearful, they are trained to mitigate the risk based on past experience. Whether you think these tactics go too far is a personal judgement. Police in the UK get attacked with weapons and even firearms occasionally, but when you are stopped for a traffic offense there the cop doesn't shine a spotlight on you and edge up your vehicle with his hand on a loaded firearm.

Different training, tactics and attitude.

I don't think cops in the US expect you to be 100% submissive on every encounter, the whole thread has been hosed by an inane argument over the silly suggestion that you should act like you're being arrested whenever you encounter a cop.

[GQ_jumper 4]

the whole thread has been hosed by an inane argument over the silly suggestion that you should act like you're being arrested whenever you encounter a cop.

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Actually when the discussion began no one said this is the way to act around a cop. People did however begin to twist words to create an argument that didn't need to happen in the first place. Basically everyone in this discussion with the exception of about two people are all in agreement that in some way shape or form you should present yourself as a NON-THREAT, when approached by a cop. This doesn't meant being submissive, or throwing your hands up like your scared, it just means that you act in a manner which does not present you as someone the cop needs to be afraid of. A polite friendly tone, lack of sudeen movements, and ensuring your hands are exposed(which could simply mean pulling them out of your pockets and putting them down to your side) are all you need to do to ensure situations like this don't happen.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[dorbie 0]

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the whole thread has been hosed by an inane argument over the silly suggestion that you should act like you're being arrested whenever you encounter a cop.

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Actually when the discussion began no one said this is the way to act around a cop. People did however begin to twist words to create an argument that didn't need to happen in the first place. Basically everyone in this discussion with the exception of about two people are all in agreement that in some way shape or form you should present yourself as a NON-THREAT, when approached by a cop. This doesn't meant being submissive, or throwing your hands up like your scared, it just means that you act in a manner which does not present you as someone the cop needs to be afraid of. A polite friendly tone, lack of sudeen movements, and ensuring your hands are exposed(which could simply mean pulling them out of your pockets and putting them down to your side) are all you need to do to ensure situations like this don't happen.

I'll agree to disagree, I'm not going to have an inane argument over an inane argument.

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[GQ_jumper 4]

I disagree with you agreeing to disagree, if there's one thing that needs to be argued, it's an argument about arguing like this

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[warpedskydiver 0]

It goes to the skimask statement

[kallend 2,150]

You keep confusing two different situations:

1. You hear strange noises and don't know who it is

2. You SEE a cop approaching your house. The scenario I'm discussing is this one originally brought up by GQ_jumper.

So please try to stick to the point.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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I don't like the idea that people are putting forward that I should be afraid of the police.

I'm still trying to understand why putting your hands on the steering wheel when pulled over (this is the analogy, not hands in the air) means you're scared. I always thought it was just polite.

In any case, this whole tangent has nothing to do with a blind and stupid cop and a blind and stupid homeowner who both made the same mistakes -

didn't ID themselves
didn't confirm their target
put themselves in exposed conditions

I'll still sit by my original comment, the homeowner has a right to defend his house - while waiting for the cops to show up due to the call he should have made. He doesn't have the right to go out and try and find the intruders and 'arrest' them himself.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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The scenario I'm discussing is this one originally brought up by GQ_jumper.

the scenario "Simple solution, you see police officers approaching your house LOUDLY identify yourself put your hands up into a non-threatening position and follow the officers directions. The majority of these accidental shooting are the fault of the "victim"."

This is silly. Unless you consider the context of the thread -

You are outside and it's very dark and you are holding a gun. Then, you see "police officers approaching instead of criminals as you originally thought - LOUDLY identify yourself, .........."

Does that help the more obtuse crowd here?




I mean, if it's daylight and I'm mowing the lawn and I see a cop approaching, I usually say "Hi, Mike, how was work, you and the family want to come over tonight and grill with us tonight? By the way, your dog pooped on my lawn over there, can you get it before I mow that spot?"

Heck, I might even make sudden moves and stop and put my hands in my pockets - and I still wouldn't worry one bit.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants