steveorino 7 #976 March 22, 2007 QuoteQuoteAmazing how you guys feel everyone but religous people can lobby and vote their conscience vote your conscience - or vote your religion? their separate - yet the same - i understand - but you should take care to not vote your religion for religous sake. Gimme a break! Where is the rule that says I cannot vote based on my own personal religous convictions? You guys are sounding more and more like the thought police. And you say Christian are forcing their views. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #977 March 22, 2007 don't have the executive order off hand, but comrade bush issued it, ALL 501(C) 3 CORPORATE CHURCHES ARE AGENCIES OF HOMELAND (IN)SECURITY.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #978 March 22, 2007 QuoteGimme a break! Yo.. you already got a huge break - right there in the first article in the bill of rights. hello? you seem to be missing the point. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE YOUR CHRISTIAN VIEWS ON OTHERS! Yet - your group keeps trying to and then whinning about why you cannot. gheesch.. give ME a break! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #979 March 22, 2007 So you think when people lobby and vote they are forcing their views on others. Should children's right activist or animal right's activist not be able to "force" oops, I mean "vote" their conscience? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #980 March 22, 2007 how founded on Xtianity the federal gov't IS NOTwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #981 March 22, 2007 You really need to learn the difference between a religous viewpoint and a 'good for society in general' viewpoint. Just because your religion happens to align with some 'good for society in general' viewpoints does not mean it aligns on ALL such viewpoints. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #982 March 22, 2007 QuoteYou really need to learn the difference between a religous viewpoint and a 'good for society in general' viewpoint. . Maybe you'd do well to learn what freedom means. Who else would you like to tell how to vote besides religous people? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #983 March 22, 2007 Is America a Christian Nation - Gratis - nice read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #984 March 22, 2007 I am not telling you how to vote - I am saying you have a responsibility to keep your religion to your self - as you were given the freedom to practice any religion you choose. You were given the freedom to practice your religion with out restriction (for the most part).. that for the most part means you cannot subvert our laws to enforce your religous specific views. to answer your question directly - I would oppose anyone whos views were based on unsound reasoning - and whos proposed policies were self serving. Christian views are self serving - they serve the christian community alone and deprive other communities their right to exist within their own beliefe system - I would oppose any views that cause harm to or hinder the freedoms for society in general. --Actually - I think you are the one that need a lesson in FREEDOM! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #985 March 22, 2007 I would hate to think we would end up unable to shake hands and enjoy skydiving together. It is not my intent to anger you - nor do I beleive your intent is to do such with me - but I think we both get passionate on this topic - and that is good we have our passions - just this one is different in focus - the skydiving aligns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #986 March 22, 2007 QuoteI am not telling you how to vote - I am saying you have a responsibility to keep your religion to your self - as you were given the freedom to practice any religion you choose. In other words, go to church if you want, but don't let the teachings of christ effect how you vote, right? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #987 March 22, 2007 QuoteI would hate to think we would end up unable to shake hands and enjoy skydiving together. It is not my intent to anger you - nor do I beleive your intent is to do such with me - but I think we both get passionate on this topic - and that is good we have our passions - just this one is different in focus - the skydiving aligns. I'm not getting angry, are you? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyProdigy 0 #988 March 22, 2007 religion divides people, spirituality brings us together. not saying there is or is not a god, but when i look at earth from space, and space itself, i say "thats pretty godly" if there is god, we are from the same god, just our beliefs are from different times. i personally believe science is where its at, factual basis for belief. not scientology, science. religion is for those who cannot guide themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigtexan 0 #989 March 22, 2007 No - just passionate - just wanted to make sure we were not going down a dark road... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #990 March 22, 2007 No problems here. While I understand how you may not likethe agenda of the religous right (neither do I, as I'm not in agreement with much of what they stand for either) I don't understand why you are against their having the opportunity to voice their beliefs either through lobbying or voting. I don't agree with many enviornementalists who don't want me to own a SUV, (or skydive if the truth be known) but I don't resent their right to express their opinions. Everyone votes and lobbies from a worldview that they identify with. Some people's worldview is centered on religion or morality, others it is on total freedom from laws, still others it is issues like the enviornment, or the safety of our children. Our ability to freely express ourselves and vote our conscience in the USA is one of the many reasons this is such a great place even with our flaws. If our conscience takes direction from a political group, a religous group, or God, it is no one's business but our own. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigtexan 0 #991 March 22, 2007 No - vote your conscious - this is what ameraica is about. Beleive me I do. However .. just know some of your votes and adjendas are self serving for your community alone - as well as some of my votes are the same - just don't fool your self that your not 'trying to force' your views on others' - as you are. For example - I don't like the idea of gay marriage - however - I can sympathize and find no reasonable grounds to deny those folks the same legal benifits my wife and I enjoy. I respect their right to have a different life style and feel their life style has no negative effects on society in general. therefore - I vote in their favor - even though personally - I don't understand their relationship - I don't deny their right to have it. I beleive religous folk try to deny their right to have a marriage based on what... their beleife it is simply wrong - however they cannot provide a sound reason why it is wrong - or should I say - good evidence why it would be bad for society in general. this is where we differ - I beleive in others rights to live their life as they choose - I feel I have a responsibility to support freedom of lifestyle, etc.. as long as it doesn't conflict with reasonable and sound reasons why it may be a bad idea for 'society in general' like why is it dissalowed to booby trap your home from burglars? why - because it is bad for society in general. We cannot have an environment with booby traps everywhere. This is a sound reason. What is a sound reason against gay marriage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #992 March 22, 2007 QuoteNo - vote your conscious - this is what ameraica is about. Beleive me I do. However .. just know some of your votes and adjendas are self serving for your community alone - as well as some of my votes are the same - What is a sound reason against gay marriage? I don't have one. That is not my argument. My point is anyone, including religous people, should have the right to lobby & vote their conscience whether it be a personal conviction or the conviction of the religion they support. So based on your first statement above. I should be able to vote my conscience unless it is self serving to me or my community? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #993 March 22, 2007 All this reminds of the initial reason I got on dropzone.com many years ago. My screen name was simply my name. I wanted to find out if skydivers would be open to a ministry for skydivers at boogies. Most were, except the few atheist who wish to deny my personal freedoms. I remember one person saying, "How would you feel about a Satanist having a tent at a boogie next to yours?" Like that was supposed to either anger me or scare me. LOL! He was a little taken back when I said, "He has every right to be there." steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigtexan 0 #994 March 22, 2007 I'm gonna give this one a rest. Vote as you please. This is your right. I would ask you put your personal beleifs aside and vote with reason instead of emotion. Whew.. your a tough cookie. Outt here.. smiles! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigtexan 0 #995 March 22, 2007 One last reply.. I support your religous freedoms. Have your boogie oggie revival. I like the songs at least.. off to bed.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #996 March 22, 2007 Quote Vote as you please. This is your right. I would ask you put your personal beleifs aside and vote with reason instead of emotion. You are still trying to tell me how to vote, no? Believe me I seldom vote out of emotion. I have reasons for for my convictions. They are not simply the knee jerk reactions of my emotions. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigtexan 0 #997 March 22, 2007 sorry sorry - cant sleep - this thought is buggin me. ok - given the ballot option. Deny Religious people voting rites - yes - no -- I would vote no. I beleive all*(see next question) have the right to vote no. Ballot option - -- Require evidence that voter can be impartial; can be objective; and put societal interest as a whole above special interest before allowing voting rights - yes - no -- I would vote yes. - Voters have a responsibility to vote with impartiality - objectivity - and in the interest of society as a whole. Stevie baby Ballot option Allow gay marriage - yes - no ??? .. and why -- and .. zheesch .. why does this get under my skin so much.. don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #998 March 22, 2007 Quote Ballot option - -- Require evidence that voter can be impartial; can be objective; and put societal interest as a whole above special interest before allowing voting rights - yes - no -- I would vote yes. - Voters have a responsibility to vote with impartiality - objectivity - and in the interest of society as a whole. Impartial according to whom? You!!?? Quote Ballot option Allow gay marriage - yes - no ??? .. and why -- and .. zheesch .. why does this get under my skin so much.. don't know. No, I believe marriage is between one man and one woman. I'd be okay for civil ceremonies. If marriage was legal for gays. I would not campaign to change it unless they inacted a law that required me to precide over the ceremony. I would not do that under any circumstances. Here's the rub. I don't care if you are gay or not. It doesn't effect me one way or another. I simply believe marriage is to between one man and one woman. I also do not want any restrictions on voting or free speech even if you are Fred Felps of Westboro Baptist Church. Now I'd like to clock him one in the jaw, but he has the right to say what he thinks. He has the right to interpret the Bible the way he wants. He has the right to let his misguided interpretations (IMHO) sway his conscience. Freedom of speech is not free if you only offer it to those to those to whom you do not dissent. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites philh 0 #999 March 22, 2007 i think there is a false dichotomy in this argument. There is a distinction between whether one has the right to behave in a certain way and whether one should behave in a certan way. If a boss fires his empoyee on his birthday, the boss is acting within his rights but most people would proabably agree this was not what he should have done. Simlarly if you campaign politiclly to make sure that all workers who are made redundant are told on their birhtdays, well yes, you would be acting within your rights. But others are acting within their rights to tell you should not follow such a campaign. So it is with the religion debate. many religious and non religious people want religion out of politics for various reasons. But most of these poeple do not advocate banning religious advocacy within politics, they just oppose its voice. The two are not the same. To oppose a religiously inspired law is not the same as oposing ones right to advocate a religiously inspired law. By claiming those that oppose you are taking away your democaractic rights is simply false. Furthermore you mistake democracy for freedom. As i have said before democracy is a necessary condition for freedom but they are not the same. If a country votes to ban all religious expression is it more free even if this was the will of the majority? Some things can be consistent with democracy and inconcistent with freedom. You have your right to your personal definition of marriage. Heres mine: when two adults commit to each for life, mostly inspired by their love for one another. To deny the rights of two people who love one another becuase they are gay I think is cruel. You may have the right to be cruel but you are still cruel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Royd 0 #1000 March 22, 2007 Quote I would oppose anyone whos views were based on unsound reasoning - and whos proposed policies were self serving. Christian views are self serving - they serve the christian community alone and deprive other communities their right to exist within their own beliefe system - I would oppose any views that cause harm to or hinder the freedoms for society in general. Would that also include the godless religion of communism or socialism? 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steveorino 7 #986 March 22, 2007 QuoteI am not telling you how to vote - I am saying you have a responsibility to keep your religion to your self - as you were given the freedom to practice any religion you choose. In other words, go to church if you want, but don't let the teachings of christ effect how you vote, right? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #987 March 22, 2007 QuoteI would hate to think we would end up unable to shake hands and enjoy skydiving together. It is not my intent to anger you - nor do I beleive your intent is to do such with me - but I think we both get passionate on this topic - and that is good we have our passions - just this one is different in focus - the skydiving aligns. I'm not getting angry, are you? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyProdigy 0 #988 March 22, 2007 religion divides people, spirituality brings us together. not saying there is or is not a god, but when i look at earth from space, and space itself, i say "thats pretty godly" if there is god, we are from the same god, just our beliefs are from different times. i personally believe science is where its at, factual basis for belief. not scientology, science. religion is for those who cannot guide themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #989 March 22, 2007 No - just passionate - just wanted to make sure we were not going down a dark road... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #990 March 22, 2007 No problems here. While I understand how you may not likethe agenda of the religous right (neither do I, as I'm not in agreement with much of what they stand for either) I don't understand why you are against their having the opportunity to voice their beliefs either through lobbying or voting. I don't agree with many enviornementalists who don't want me to own a SUV, (or skydive if the truth be known) but I don't resent their right to express their opinions. Everyone votes and lobbies from a worldview that they identify with. Some people's worldview is centered on religion or morality, others it is on total freedom from laws, still others it is issues like the enviornment, or the safety of our children. Our ability to freely express ourselves and vote our conscience in the USA is one of the many reasons this is such a great place even with our flaws. If our conscience takes direction from a political group, a religous group, or God, it is no one's business but our own. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #991 March 22, 2007 No - vote your conscious - this is what ameraica is about. Beleive me I do. However .. just know some of your votes and adjendas are self serving for your community alone - as well as some of my votes are the same - just don't fool your self that your not 'trying to force' your views on others' - as you are. For example - I don't like the idea of gay marriage - however - I can sympathize and find no reasonable grounds to deny those folks the same legal benifits my wife and I enjoy. I respect their right to have a different life style and feel their life style has no negative effects on society in general. therefore - I vote in their favor - even though personally - I don't understand their relationship - I don't deny their right to have it. I beleive religous folk try to deny their right to have a marriage based on what... their beleife it is simply wrong - however they cannot provide a sound reason why it is wrong - or should I say - good evidence why it would be bad for society in general. this is where we differ - I beleive in others rights to live their life as they choose - I feel I have a responsibility to support freedom of lifestyle, etc.. as long as it doesn't conflict with reasonable and sound reasons why it may be a bad idea for 'society in general' like why is it dissalowed to booby trap your home from burglars? why - because it is bad for society in general. We cannot have an environment with booby traps everywhere. This is a sound reason. What is a sound reason against gay marriage? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #992 March 22, 2007 QuoteNo - vote your conscious - this is what ameraica is about. Beleive me I do. However .. just know some of your votes and adjendas are self serving for your community alone - as well as some of my votes are the same - What is a sound reason against gay marriage? I don't have one. That is not my argument. My point is anyone, including religous people, should have the right to lobby & vote their conscience whether it be a personal conviction or the conviction of the religion they support. So based on your first statement above. I should be able to vote my conscience unless it is self serving to me or my community? steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #993 March 22, 2007 All this reminds of the initial reason I got on dropzone.com many years ago. My screen name was simply my name. I wanted to find out if skydivers would be open to a ministry for skydivers at boogies. Most were, except the few atheist who wish to deny my personal freedoms. I remember one person saying, "How would you feel about a Satanist having a tent at a boogie next to yours?" Like that was supposed to either anger me or scare me. LOL! He was a little taken back when I said, "He has every right to be there." steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #994 March 22, 2007 I'm gonna give this one a rest. Vote as you please. This is your right. I would ask you put your personal beleifs aside and vote with reason instead of emotion. Whew.. your a tough cookie. Outt here.. smiles! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #995 March 22, 2007 One last reply.. I support your religous freedoms. Have your boogie oggie revival. I like the songs at least.. off to bed.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #996 March 22, 2007 Quote Vote as you please. This is your right. I would ask you put your personal beleifs aside and vote with reason instead of emotion. You are still trying to tell me how to vote, no? Believe me I seldom vote out of emotion. I have reasons for for my convictions. They are not simply the knee jerk reactions of my emotions. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigtexan 0 #997 March 22, 2007 sorry sorry - cant sleep - this thought is buggin me. ok - given the ballot option. Deny Religious people voting rites - yes - no -- I would vote no. I beleive all*(see next question) have the right to vote no. Ballot option - -- Require evidence that voter can be impartial; can be objective; and put societal interest as a whole above special interest before allowing voting rights - yes - no -- I would vote yes. - Voters have a responsibility to vote with impartiality - objectivity - and in the interest of society as a whole. Stevie baby Ballot option Allow gay marriage - yes - no ??? .. and why -- and .. zheesch .. why does this get under my skin so much.. don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #998 March 22, 2007 Quote Ballot option - -- Require evidence that voter can be impartial; can be objective; and put societal interest as a whole above special interest before allowing voting rights - yes - no -- I would vote yes. - Voters have a responsibility to vote with impartiality - objectivity - and in the interest of society as a whole. Impartial according to whom? You!!?? Quote Ballot option Allow gay marriage - yes - no ??? .. and why -- and .. zheesch .. why does this get under my skin so much.. don't know. No, I believe marriage is between one man and one woman. I'd be okay for civil ceremonies. If marriage was legal for gays. I would not campaign to change it unless they inacted a law that required me to precide over the ceremony. I would not do that under any circumstances. Here's the rub. I don't care if you are gay or not. It doesn't effect me one way or another. I simply believe marriage is to between one man and one woman. I also do not want any restrictions on voting or free speech even if you are Fred Felps of Westboro Baptist Church. Now I'd like to clock him one in the jaw, but he has the right to say what he thinks. He has the right to interpret the Bible the way he wants. He has the right to let his misguided interpretations (IMHO) sway his conscience. Freedom of speech is not free if you only offer it to those to those to whom you do not dissent. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #999 March 22, 2007 i think there is a false dichotomy in this argument. There is a distinction between whether one has the right to behave in a certain way and whether one should behave in a certan way. If a boss fires his empoyee on his birthday, the boss is acting within his rights but most people would proabably agree this was not what he should have done. Simlarly if you campaign politiclly to make sure that all workers who are made redundant are told on their birhtdays, well yes, you would be acting within your rights. But others are acting within their rights to tell you should not follow such a campaign. So it is with the religion debate. many religious and non religious people want religion out of politics for various reasons. But most of these poeple do not advocate banning religious advocacy within politics, they just oppose its voice. The two are not the same. To oppose a religiously inspired law is not the same as oposing ones right to advocate a religiously inspired law. By claiming those that oppose you are taking away your democaractic rights is simply false. Furthermore you mistake democracy for freedom. As i have said before democracy is a necessary condition for freedom but they are not the same. If a country votes to ban all religious expression is it more free even if this was the will of the majority? Some things can be consistent with democracy and inconcistent with freedom. You have your right to your personal definition of marriage. Heres mine: when two adults commit to each for life, mostly inspired by their love for one another. To deny the rights of two people who love one another becuase they are gay I think is cruel. You may have the right to be cruel but you are still cruel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #1000 March 22, 2007 Quote I would oppose anyone whos views were based on unsound reasoning - and whos proposed policies were self serving. Christian views are self serving - they serve the christian community alone and deprive other communities their right to exist within their own beliefe system - I would oppose any views that cause harm to or hinder the freedoms for society in general. Would that also include the godless religion of communism or socialism? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
