kallend 2,146 #151 February 23, 2007 Quotewe covered that one before. You didn't like all of the answers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How Criminals Get Guns by Dan Noyes, Center for Investigative Reporting -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal. In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities. The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street. According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity." The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years. Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts. While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it. ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market." ---------------------------- Or, to put it another way, the "law abiding gun owners" of America are, for the most part, the ones responsible for arming the criminals through straw purchases, unregulated sales, shady but legal dealers...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #152 February 23, 2007 Thanks John, for pointing out that criminals get guns from criminals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #153 February 23, 2007 QuoteThanks John, for pointing out that criminals get guns from criminals. Yes, a lot of these self-proclaimed "law abiding gun owners" are criminals, and their methods are vigorously defended by the gun lobby.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #154 February 23, 2007 No John they are not...point out one pro second ammendment organization that will allow a convicted felon a membership, the funny thing is that you don't realize who the members of the NRA are. Law Enforcement Officals, Carpenters, Soldiers, Clergy, Doctors, Scientists, Bus Driver, Housewives, Victims of Serious Crimes, the list goes on and on. Criminals are just that...Criminals Hey there are tenured Professors that are Convicted Felons, why is that ok? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #155 February 23, 2007 Please do something for all of us ok? Tell us in a plain spoken way whether or not you believe in the Second Ammendment. Then you can tell us if you feel it is just to remove anyones civil rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #156 February 23, 2007 QuoteNo John they are not...point out one pro second ammendment organization that will allow a convicted felon a membership, the funny thing is that you don't realize who the members of the NRA are. Law Enforcement Officals, Carpenters, Soldiers, Clergy, Doctors, Scientists, Bus Driver, Housewives, Victims of Serious Crimes, the list goes on and on. Criminals are just that...Criminals Hey there are tenured Professors that are Convicted Felons, why is that ok? I wrote "methods", not "people". The NRA and other gun lobby organizations vigorously defend the processes by which legal guns get traded and end up as illegal guns in the hands of criminals. Pretty much every criminal's illegal gun started out as a legal gun in the hands of a "law abiding gun owner".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #157 February 23, 2007 John The NRA has come out strongly in favor of PROSECUTION of people committing "STRAW PURCHASES." Please rethink your statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #158 February 23, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71YpogEUCDI Check out this womans testimony before the US Senate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #159 February 23, 2007 Hey nearly every drug smugglers plane started out as a legally purchased plane...we should destroy all planes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #160 February 23, 2007 QuoteHey nearly every drug smugglers plane started out as a legally purchased plane...we should destroy all planes. Planes don't kill people. Pilots do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #161 February 23, 2007 QuoteJohn The NRA has come out strongly in favor of PROSECUTION of people committing "STRAW PURCHASES." Please rethink your statement. I suppose lip service is good, but what have they done about checking up on sales by unlicensed people, either in private or at shows? What have they done to support ENFORCEMENT of laws against straw purchases other than giving lip service? The problem isn't the 2nd Amendment**, the problem is the hotch potch of unenforcible and inconsistent laws that do nothing to prevent criminals from getting guns, and the intransigence of the NRA in opposing any laws that help prevent crooks from getting guns. ** actually I think the way the 2nd Amendment is worded IS part of the problem, combined with the vague interpretations of its meaning by the courts.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #162 February 23, 2007 Quote ** actually I think the way the 2nd Amendment is worded IS part of the problem, combined with the vague interpretations of its meaning by the courts. It would be funny if history revealed the scribe of the final draft of the Second Amendment to have been dyslexic: the original draft had actually preserved the right to arm bears. Once it was published, of course, nobody wanted to look like an idiot by changing it, so they just left it as is. The rest, as the saying goes, is history. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #163 February 23, 2007 QuoteHey nearly every drug smugglers plane started out as a legally purchased plane...we should destroy all planes. I haven't suggested destroying any guns. However, following your analogy, maybe we should register guns (like planes) inspect them at regular intervals (like planes) put a tax on bullets (like aviation fuel is taxed) licence gun owners (like pilots) make gun owners pass a written, oral and practical test (like pilots) report all changes of ownership (like planes). Yes, maybe you had a good idea there, but it will never fly with the NRA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #164 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteJohn The NRA has come out strongly in favor of PROSECUTION of people committing "STRAW PURCHASES." Please rethink your statement. I suppose lip service is good, but what have they done about checking up on sales by unlicensed people, either in private or at shows? What have they done to support ENFORCEMENT of laws against straw purchases other than giving lip service? The problem isn't the 2nd Amendment**, the problem is the hotch potch of unenforcible and inconsistent laws that do nothing to prevent criminals from getting guns, and the intransigence of the NRA in opposing any laws that help prevent crooks from getting guns. ** actually I think the way the 2nd Amendment is worded IS part of the problem, combined with the vague interpretations of its meaning by the courts. Guarantee that there will NEVER be a recurrence of the Sullivan laws or the fiasco in California where registration info was used for confiscation, and I'll gladly support EVERY private sale going through NICS for record-keeping. As for the 2nd...the problem isn't the language, but the recent liberal interpretation of it - see most any decision by the 9th Circus for proof.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #165 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteJohn The NRA has come out strongly in favor of PROSECUTION of people committing "STRAW PURCHASES." Please rethink your statement. I suppose lip service is good, but what have they done about checking up on sales by unlicensed people, either in private or at shows? What have they done to support ENFORCEMENT of laws against straw purchases other than giving lip service? The problem isn't the 2nd Amendment**, the problem is the hotch potch of unenforcible and inconsistent laws that do nothing to prevent criminals from getting guns, and the intransigence of the NRA in opposing any laws that help prevent crooks from getting guns. ** actually I think the way the 2nd Amendment is worded IS part of the problem, combined with the vague interpretations of its meaning by the courts. Guarantee that there will NEVER be a recurrence of the Sullivan laws or the fiasco in California where registration info was used for confiscation, and I'll gladly support EVERY private sale going through NICS for record-keeping. I think that could be done by constitutional amendment to clarify the right to own firearms. Surely there are enough gun owners in thr USA to ensure passage.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #166 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteHey nearly every drug smugglers plane started out as a legally purchased plane...we should destroy all planes. I haven't suggested destroying any guns. However, following your analogy, maybe we should register guns (like planes) inspect them at regular intervals (like planes) put a tax on bullets (like aviation fuel is taxed) licence gun owners (like pilots) make gun owners pass a written, oral and practical test (like pilots) report all changes of ownership (like planes). Yes, maybe you had a good idea there, but it will never fly with the NRA. Ok but show me where in the constitution where it states we all have the right to fly or own a plane. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #167 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteHey nearly every drug smugglers plane started out as a legally purchased plane...we should destroy all planes. I haven't suggested destroying any guns. However, following your analogy, maybe we should register guns (like planes) inspect them at regular intervals (like planes) put a tax on bullets (like aviation fuel is taxed) licence gun owners (like pilots) make gun owners pass a written, oral and practical test (like pilots) report all changes of ownership (like planes). Yes, maybe you had a good idea there, but it will never fly with the NRA. Ok but show me where in the constitution where it states we all have the right to fly or own a plane. Planes are your analogy, not mine. I think it is a morally bankrupt position to say that because it's difficult to prevent criminals from getting guns that we should not make any efforts (indeed, torpedo efforts because they may provide some inconvenience to gun users).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #168 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHey nearly every drug smugglers plane started out as a legally purchased plane...we should destroy all planes. I haven't suggested destroying any guns. However, following your analogy, maybe we should register guns (like planes) inspect them at regular intervals (like planes) put a tax on bullets (like aviation fuel is taxed) licence gun owners (like pilots) make gun owners pass a written, oral and practical test (like pilots) report all changes of ownership (like planes). Yes, maybe you had a good idea there, but it will never fly with the NRA. Ok but show me where in the constitution where it states we all have the right to fly or own a plane. Planes are your analogy, not mine. I think it is a morally bankrupt position to say that because it's difficult to prevent criminals from getting guns that we should not make any efforts (indeed, torpedo efforts because they may provide some inconvenience to gun users). The same argument could be used to argue for Patriot act pen traces.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #169 February 23, 2007 Quote The same argument could be used to argue for Patriot act pen traces. Want to discuss the PA? Why not start a new thread?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #170 February 23, 2007 QuoteOk but show me where in the constitution where it states we all have the right to fly or own a plane. Ok, but you show me where in the constitution it says all americans have the right to own firearms! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #171 February 23, 2007 QuoteI think it is a morally bankrupt position to say that because it's difficult to prevent criminals from getting guns that we should not make any efforts (indeed, torpedo efforts because they may provide some inconvenience to gun users). I can see how this could be viewed as flawed or short-sighted logic, but morally bankrupt? You crack me up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #172 February 23, 2007 Quote You crack me up. You're very welcome... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,110 #173 February 23, 2007 >Ok but show me where in the constitution where it states we all have >the right to fly or own a plane. Amendment X - Powers of the States and People The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #174 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuote The same argument could be used to argue for Patriot act pen traces. Want to discuss the PA? Why not start a new thread? No, I don't think a new thread is needed for a one-off remark, thanks.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #175 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteOk but show me where in the constitution where it states we all have the right to fly or own a plane. Ok, but you show me where in the constitution it says all americans have the right to own firearms! QuoteA well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
