MSNBC Says Wounded Veterans Living in Filth

[Andy9o8 2]

Now the Secy of the Army has been forced out, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/02/army.secretary/index.html

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of the Army Francis Harvey resigned Friday in the wake of recent reports of substandard conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, a key facility treating troops wounded in Iraq.

[Gawain 0]

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Now the Secy of the Army has been forced out, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/02/army.secretary/index.html

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of the Army Francis Harvey resigned Friday in the wake of recent reports of substandard conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, a key facility treating troops wounded in Iraq.

Francis Harvey is a good man, and I don't think he should have resigned.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Andy9o8 2]

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Now the Secy of the Army has been forced out, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/02/army.secretary/index.html

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of the Army Francis Harvey resigned Friday in the wake of recent reports of substandard conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, a key facility treating troops wounded in Iraq.

Francis Harvey is a good man, and I don't think he should have resigned.

Well, not that we should necessarily adopt the Japanese philosophy of a leader resigning as an apology for the disgrace of his subordinates, but sometimes I think that in our society not enough leaders take enough responsibility when their subordinates act disgracefully. So maybe Harvey is doing the honorable thing. Or, maybe he was just forced out.

[Gawain 0]

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Now the Secy of the Army has been forced out, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/02/army.secretary/index.html

Quote

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of the Army Francis Harvey resigned Friday in the wake of recent reports of substandard conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, a key facility treating troops wounded in Iraq.

Francis Harvey is a good man, and I don't think he should have resigned.

Well, not that we should necessarily adopt the Japanese philosophy of a leader resigning as an apology for the disgrace of his subordinates, but sometimes I think that in our society not enough leaders take enough responsibility when their subordinates act disgracefully. So maybe Harvey is doing the honorable thing. Or, maybe he was just forced out.

Prior to his resignation, a two-star, a captain, and two first-sergeants were relieved. It's possible that another two-star might be "reassigned". The civilian head of the branch didn't need to fall on his sword.

I don't like how the whole thing broke out, and I do not commend the Post, even if they were accurate. While things are getting fixed, the motives of the Post were less than honorable in this instance.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[mnealtx 0]

As I thought - this isn't a new problem...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[penniless 0]

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Now the Secy of the Army has been forced out, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/03/02/army.secretary/index.html

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WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Secretary of the Army Francis Harvey resigned Friday in the wake of recent reports of substandard conditions at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, a key facility treating troops wounded in Iraq.

Francis Harvey is a good man, and I don't think he should have resigned.

Well, not that we should necessarily adopt the Japanese philosophy of a leader resigning as an apology for the disgrace of his subordinates, but sometimes I think that in our society not enough leaders take enough responsibility when their subordinates act disgracefully. So maybe Harvey is doing the honorable thing. Or, maybe he was just forced out.

Prior to his resignation, a two-star, a captain, and two first-sergeants were relieved. It's possible that another two-star might be "reassigned". The civilian head of the branch didn't need to fall on his sword.

I don't like how the whole thing broke out, and I do not commend the Post, even if they were accurate. While things are getting fixed, the motives of the Post were less than honorable in this instance.

We don't have anything like enough high level people taking responsibility these days.

I don't see that the Post's motives matter in the slightest.

[billvon 3,116]

>While things are getting fixed, the motives of the Post were less
>than honorable in this instance.

I have a strong feeling their motives are what they always are - to sell papers.

I am glad they published this story. It will improve the conditions that wounded veterans have to deal with, and that's a good thing no matter how you look at it - even if they made money on the story.

[freethefly 6]

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If you look at the President's budget, the VA's budget is roughly $5B more than last year. The VA reps have not outlined any specific cut to me. Why don't you tell me specifically where the vets are getting cuts in their benefits?

St. Louis V.A. centers, John Cochran and Jefferson Barracks (the first parachute jump from an airplane was done in 1912 by Capt. Albert Berry over Jefferson Barracks) are slated to recieve 100 million dollars this year for rennovations and medical equipment upgrades. John Cochran itself got a new waiting room about 7 years ago. They named it the "Admiral Room". At the time they were adding this huge waiting room, the rest the the center was a mess. Getting to see a doctor was an all day affair. Service was limited to what could be afforded. The place was extremely dirty. It wasn't uncommon to see a cockroach while waiting to see a doctor. John Cochran has also , once, loss its accreditation and was listed as the worst hospital in the nation. Yet, they seem fine to spend millions on a waiting room. I hope things get better there as I plan on returning to the V.A. in St. Louis for medical care.

From the St. Louis Business Journal;
The local U.S. Veterans Affairs hospital system is planning a more than $100 million makeover that includes moving heart surgery in-house and modernizing services for area veterans.

"We have more construction planned in the next year than we have had in the last 10," said Keith Repko, chief engineer for the VA's two local hospitals -- Jefferson Barracks Hospital in south St. Louis County and John Cochran Hospital in Midtown. They have 355 beds total and are known collectively as the St. Louis VA Medical Center.


The Jefferson Barracks facility is slated for $70 million to $100 million in construction and upgrades; about $16 million in building projects are planned for the John Cochran site. Federal budget appropriations for the work are pending.

About 400 Saint Louis University and Washington University physicians are credentialed to provide services at the St. Louis VA Medical Center. The medical center employs 1,900, including most of its primary care physicians and some of its specialists. Glen Struchtemeyer is its director.

The nation's VA hospitals and clinics have gotten high marks in recent years for their efforts to improve care and step up medical technology.

Ophthalmologist Dr. Nathan Ravi, chief of staff for the St. Louis VA Medical Center, said its goal is to boost its federal hospital classification by becoming a more comprehensive medical care center to better serve its patients. The federal government currently gives it a "1B" classification based on the number of services it offers, but Ravi said it is striving for "1A," the top VA hospital rating.

Toward that end, the John Cochran Hospital opened a new outpatient endocrinology and preventive medicine department three weeks ago, and there are plans to convert existing space at the hospital into a new $1 million cardiothoracic surgery unit. Currently, the St. Louis VA Medical Center can perform other types of general surgery but must farm out cardiothoracic procedures to St. Luke's Hospital, St. John's Mercy Medical Center, Barnes-Jewish Hospital and Saint Louis University Hospital.

Ravi said bringing the surgery program in-house should save the VA Medical Center at least $300 to $400 per procedure. The new surgery center also will allow the hospital to perform in-house eye surgeries it currently cannot.

"The first year, our target is to handle a total of 100 to 120 cases at the cardiothoracic surgery center," Ravi said. "By the third year, it should be 180 cases a year." Currently, 43 of the nation's 157 VA hospitals perform cardiothoracic surgeries in-house.

"Last year there was legislation signed to allow us to more appropriately pay our doctors, to try and compete with the outside," Repko said. "That's one reason we can look at the internal cardiothoracic program."

Ravi said the St. Louis VA Medical Center is getting $6 million more per year in physician pay, which will allow it to compete better with private-sector hospitals in recruiting doctors.

According to 2005 Department of Veterans Affairs data, Missouri and Illinois have a combined veteran population of about 1.4 million, and those veterans' medical care and related expenses cost the department up to $1.9 billion a year. Care is provided for veterans only. The conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan could increase the pool of U.S. veterans needing care, but their numbers may be offset somewhat by the passing of World War I and II veterans.

Still, Ravi said, the St. Louis VA hospitals must anticipate future needs by expanding services and improving facilities. Other VA facilities, including hospitals in Denver, Milwaukee and Pittsburgh, also are awaiting multimillion-dollar congressional appropriations to add space and services.

Repko said the $70 million to $100 million in Jefferson Barracks construction will include demolishing some older, underutilized buildings on the campus, an existing gymnasium and pool area, an old central boiler and utility plant and other structures needing costly renovations.

The project will add new clinical space and new patient rooms, and Ravi said 30 to 40 doctors, nurses and other medical professionals will be hired to staff the new space. No floor plans have yet been devised. The gymnasium and pool will be rebuilt, an aquatic therapy center will be added and the boiler plant will be replaced by individual heating/cooling systems at each of the campus's buildings. Plans call for a new chapel and hospital supply warehouse to be added as well. Preliminary site designs are being drawn up by the Ellerbe Becket architectural firm, based in Kansas City.

Marcina Gunter, a local VA spokeswoman, said the Jefferson Barracks site plan also includes turning over 31 acres at the hospital campus' northeast end to the adjacent Jefferson Barracks Cemetery. Gunter said the cemetery must expand because of the rate at which war veterans are dying of natural causes.

At John Cochran Hospital, the VA also is planning a new $15 million parking garage. A developer is being sought for the project; the developer will pay to build the structure, and that company and the hospital both will use it, Repko said. Cochran employees and patients will park in the structure during the day, and the developer can sell parking space there in the evening and on weekends. The VA expects to choose a developer after Feb. 6, when bids for the project are due.

The combined Jefferson Barracks and John Cochran hospitals' budget for fiscal 2006 was $250 million, up from $230 million the previous year, according to Kevin Inkley, staff assistant to the director for both medical centers.

The building projects have received preliminary authorization but have not yet gotten funding appropriations.

"The funding should be a component of the upcoming federal budget package," Inkley said. "Right now, like other federal offices, we're working off a continuing resolution until Congress passes the budget, but we don't know when that will happen or what our 2007 budget will be."

jjohnson@bizjournals.com

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Ragnarok 0]

It is stupid for these people to resign. WHat does that accomplish? Running from the problem then passing the buck to the next guy to take over? This action will be laughed at someday. Polichickens running around like something got cut off - and the ones that did the cutting just sit back and watch.....

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[Gawain 0]

I'm not sure why you replied to me with that post. It pretty much showed that the VA is simply waiting for Congress to approve the budget that the President proposed.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[ExAFO 0]

Irony: They should hire the Bin Laden Group to do the rehab on all the VA buildings...

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[freethefly 6]

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I'm not sure why you replied to me with that post. It pretty much showed that the VA is simply waiting for Congress to approve the budget that the President proposed.

Just an example that some V.A. centers are trying to do there best to provide the best while other centers fall far below the standard. Just in the last couple of days it has been reported that what is going on at WRAMC is far spread. John Cochran in St. Louis at one time was a place that you would not take a mongrel dog to. The place was filthy. You were treated has if you were just another one of the roaches in the place. I myself have filed a good number of complaints on the staff. I'm a vet, my taxes pay for my treatment. I expect nothing but the best and nothing less. Anyone who goes to the V.A. should demand nothing but the best and complain when they see our money being wasted.

Your reply;

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The VA reps have not outlined any specific cut to me. Why don't you tell me specifically where the vets are getting cuts in their benefits?

To Zippo's;

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Uhhh... Bush's latest budget cuts Vet benefits, including medical.
We owe more to wounded soldiers than to just about anyone else. I'm sure even the conservatives can get behind a tax increase that benefits wounded vets.

I merely showed an example of what is right when the right people are in charge and in this case it is civilians in charge not some asshat general who only cares about how shiney his stars are. Just as I sit here the news is showing patients at WRAMC as they testify to what a crappy place WRAMC actually is yet, you want us to believe that it is a shiny beacon of just how great the V.A. is. I tend to believe the many who are standing up and speaking up and not giving a damn about how it makes the military bigwigs look. And why should they care? Screw those asshat generals. It is their health that is most important. Not the career of some commissioned fucknuts who tried to roll the shit down hill and put the blame on the enlisted men. Warms my heart to see the shit roll up the hill. My opinion is that all V.A. centers should be ran by civilians and not by the military. The military couldn't wipe its own ass without a thousand carbon copies of tp and then screw the job up anyways.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[GQ_jumper 4]

In case anyone is interested this is how soldiers live everywhere. There's a handful of vet's in here that can back me up on this. The living conditions when you are a soldier are sub-standard across the board. We make due, you should see some of the things we do to make our living quarters bearable. I spent my first year in the service living in a building that was built in WWII. When they remodeled it they repainted the walls and put new tile in the hallway where it was cracked. They called that bringing it up to standard. Welcome to the military, it's all about sacrifice and unfortunately one of those sacrifices is decent living conditions when you're hurt.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[ExAFO 0]

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In case anyone is interested this is how soldiers live everywhere. There's a handful of vet's in here that can back me up on this. The living conditions when you are a soldier are sub-standard across the board. We make due, you should see some of the things we do to make our living quarters bearable. I spent my first year in the service living in a building that was built in WWII. When they remodeled it they repainted the walls and put new tile in the hallway where it was cracked. They called that bringing it up to standard. Welcome to the military, it's all about sacrifice and unfortunately one of those sacrifices is decent living conditions when you're hurt.

You should have joined the USAF. Our housing was just fine. It's the individual services who dork up things like that.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[mnealtx 0]

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Just as I sit here the news is showing patients at WRAMC as they testify to what a crappy place WRAMC actually is yet, you want us to believe that it is a shiny beacon of just how great the V.A. is.

Of course, Max wouldn't know, only having spent THE LAST YEAR there...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[freethefly 6]

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Of course, Max wouldn't know, only having spent THE LAST YEAR there...

Never said that he didn't know. I am more than happy that things are going good for him and they should be. Tell me, Mike, why is it do you suppose that so many are coming forward and testifying that it is other than satisfactory. Across the country V.A. centers have gone far to long without proper maintenance and management. It is pure BULLSHIT that vets should go without nothing but the finest that this country has to offer. And I completely disagree with GQ's

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Welcome to the military, it's all about sacrifice and unfortunately one of those sacrifices is decent living conditions when you're hurt.

Is this to say that military personnel should just buck up and shut up and take what they get? That is pure bullshit! It is completely understandable that these kind of conditions might be tolerated in Iraq or Afghanistan but, NOT HERE!!! Not in a country that boast to have nothing but the finest. From GQ's post I take it that he believes that crappy living conditions is just the military way. Well it is not. I grew up in a military family. My father was hardcore Navy. He never accepted filth. The bases we lived on were shipshape and squared away. I did boot at San Diego RTC on Rosecran 27 years ago. Those buildings were WW2 era yet, they were kept in shape and clean. My ship was clean. Our berthing was clean. When I spent a month in Balboa Naval Hospital, it was clean. I was disgusted at the condition and treatment that I found at John Cochran V.A. center in St. Louis. Completely unacceptable. And I made a point of it to complain everytime I went there. Near everytime I was there in the waiting room there was talk amongst the vets about what a shithole it was. I am happy to see it is being turned around. Vets shouldn't have to complain. We should expect nothing but the best. GQ, if the conditions you live in are filthy, I reccommend you grab a bucket and swab and change the condition. I was a 2nd class HT in charge of the shipfitter shop. Our work was filthy but, our shop fucking shined like polished chrome. Each and every piece of copper and brass, you could see your face. You could eat off of the deck. If a shop that dealt in repairing the hull of a ship could be so clean then a V.A. center that deals with repairing humans should be 100 times cleaner.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[mnealtx 0]

I'm not disputing anything that was in the articles, because I've not been there - I was taking issue to what seemed to be you attacking Max for saying that it wasn't as bad there as the articles said. If that wasn't the case, then I apologize for the confusion.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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I'm not sure why you replied to me with that post. It pretty much showed that the VA is simply waiting for Congress to approve the budget that the President proposed.

Just an example that some V.A. centers are trying to do there best to provide the best while other centers fall far below the standard. Just in the last couple of days it has been reported that what is going on at WRAMC is far spread. John Cochran in St. Louis at one time was a place that you would not take a mongrel dog to. The place was filthy. You were treated has if you were just another one of the roaches in the place. I myself have filed a good number of complaints on the staff. I'm a vet, my taxes pay for my treatment. I expect nothing but the best and nothing less. Anyone who goes to the V.A. should demand nothing but the best and complain when they see our money being wasted.

I don't have any direct experience with the VA centers yet, so I can't comment on them. However, your point about WRAMC is far off. The issues are not "far spread". If they were, you would see them lining up to testify before Congress (myself included).

Your reply;

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The VA reps have not outlined any specific cut to me. Why don't you tell me specifically where the vets are getting cuts in their benefits?

To Zippo's;

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Uhhh... Bush's latest budget cuts Vet benefits, including medical.
We owe more to wounded soldiers than to just about anyone else. I'm sure even the conservatives can get behind a tax increase that benefits wounded vets.

I merely showed an example of what is right when the right people are in charge and in this case it is civilians in charge not some asshat general who only cares about how shiney his stars are. Just as I sit here the news is showing patients at WRAMC as they testify to what a crappy place WRAMC actually is yet, you want us to believe that it is a shiny beacon of just how great the V.A. is.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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In case anyone is interested this is how soldiers live everywhere. There's a handful of vet's in here that can back me up on this. The living conditions when you are a soldier are sub-standard across the board. We make due, you should see some of the things we do to make our living quarters bearable. I spent my first year in the service living in a building that was built in WWII. When they remodeled it they repainted the walls and put new tile in the hallway where it was cracked. They called that bringing it up to standard. Welcome to the military, it's all about sacrifice and unfortunately one of those sacrifices is decent living conditions when you're hurt.

Alot of people would be really shocked to see where our troops have lived in the years past.

Sure we kept it clean when we had a barracks, but you should see some of the other places we lived.

[GQ_jumper 4]

GQ, if the conditions you live in are filthy, I reccommend you grab a bucket and swab and change the condition.

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Last time I checked when I lived in WWII era barracks we worked our asses off every day to keep them clean, the places were just falling apart, nothing we could do about it, but we still made the best of what we had. Like I said, welcome to the military, the public will give a shit about this for about a month or two, and then when the news coverage stops, the public will forget all about it and focus on Britney's new hair cut or Anna Nicole's kid but the conitions at WR will still be shitty. People in the military are never given the kind of treatment they work for, especially in the Army.

It's funny how people bitch about not wanting to spend more money on the military and at the same time bitch about how the conditions aren't good enough, last time I checked it takes money to improve conditions.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[kallend 2,148]

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Just as I sit here the news is showing patients at WRAMC as they testify to what a crappy place WRAMC actually is yet, you want us to believe that it is a shiny beacon of just how great the V.A. is.

Of course, Max wouldn't know, only having spent THE LAST YEAR there...

"As someone who is a patient at WRAMC right now, I can say that I've never been to bldg 18, but I've heard it's awful.", Gawain, post 2 of THIS THREAD.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Just as I sit here the news is showing patients at WRAMC as they testify to what a crappy place WRAMC actually is yet, you want us to believe that it is a shiny beacon of just how great the V.A. is.

Of course, Max wouldn't know, only having spent THE LAST YEAR there...

"As someone who is a patient at WRAMC right now, I can say that I've never been to bldg 18, but I've heard it's awful.", Gawain, post 2 of THIS THREAD.

I was answering freethefly slamming Max for saying that the WRAMC wasn't as bad as the article made out... reading IS fundamental.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gawain 0]

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Of course, Max wouldn't know, only having spent THE LAST YEAR there...

Never said that he didn't know. I am more than happy that things are going good for him and they should be. Tell me, Mike, why is it do you suppose that so many are coming forward and testifying that it is other than satisfactory.

Four out of 800 hardly "so many coming forward". I know one of the guys that testified in front of the Congressional panel the other day. He had more than one avenue to pursue to get this addressed. He made his choices. I don't agree with it, but the deal is done. In the end, all of this will only benefit WRAMC. However, the wrong people are getting fired over it.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[kallend 2,148]

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Of course, Max wouldn't know, only having spent THE LAST YEAR there...

Never said that he didn't know. I am more than happy that things are going good for him and they should be. Tell me, Mike, why is it do you suppose that so many are coming forward and testifying that it is other than satisfactory.

Four out of 800 hardly "so many coming forward". I know one of the guys that testified in front of the Congressional panel the other day. He had more than one avenue to pursue to get this addressed. He made his choices. I don't agree with it, but the deal is done. In the end, all of this will only benefit WRAMC. However, the wrong people are getting fired over it.

Whatever your companion's motives may be, or the way he chose to address the issue, don't change the facts of the situation by one iota.

The Army medical facilities were not prepared for the influx of wounded from this war - all part of a massive planning failure at the very top.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GQ_jumper 4]

The Army medical facilities were not prepared for the influx of wounded from this war

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You are correct in this statement Kallend, but you can't forget that when we go to war we can't wait for the army we want to have, you go with what you've got.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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