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Andy9o8 2
In another thread a couple months ago, I (with an open mind) asked John Rich to explain legitimate, non-military applications for which civilians would use semi-auto rifles such as "assault weapons", etc. He (and others, I seem to recall) explained that legitimate civilian use would include using such weapons on the range, and that this recreational use alone was sufficient to be deemed a legitimate use.
OK, Fair enough. So with an open mind, since I'm not a hunter myself, I'd appreciate some hunters out there educating me: do semi-auto rifles have a sensible application in civilian sport hunting? I mean, I suppose if I were hunting strictly for survival (i.e., hunt successfully or starve), being able to quickly fire multiple rounds at fleeing food game would increase the chance of a hit. But I'm talking more from a "sporting" aspect, where "one shot" is considered to be what's ethical. If so, can you please give me some practical examples? Thanks.
OK, Fair enough. So with an open mind, since I'm not a hunter myself, I'd appreciate some hunters out there educating me: do semi-auto rifles have a sensible application in civilian sport hunting? I mean, I suppose if I were hunting strictly for survival (i.e., hunt successfully or starve), being able to quickly fire multiple rounds at fleeing food game would increase the chance of a hit. But I'm talking more from a "sporting" aspect, where "one shot" is considered to be what's ethical. If so, can you please give me some practical examples? Thanks.
rushmc 23
QuoteIn another thread a couple months ago, I (with an open mind) asked John Rich to explain legitimate, non-military applications for which civilians would use semi-auto rifles such as "assault weapons", etc. He (and others, I seem to recall) explained that legitimate civilian use would include using such weapons on the range, and that this recreational use alone was sufficient to be deemed a legitimate use.
OK, Fair enough. So with an open mind, since I'm not a hunter myself, I'd appreciate some hunters out there educating me: do semi-auto rifles have a sensible application in civilian sport hunting? I mean, I suppose if I were hunting strictly for survival (i.e., hunt successfully or starve), being able to quickly fire multiple rounds at fleeing food game would increase the chance of a hit. But I'm talking more from a "sporting" aspect, where "one shot" is considered to be what's ethical. If so, can you please give me some practical examples? Thanks.
I don't know if a direct answer can be given let me try this approach. (not to deflect your question)
A 200 to 250 square foot canopy will get nearly all skydivers down safely. Why jump a highly loaded eliptical?
Does anybody really need a car with more than say 150 horse?
I think more than anything it is a choice. One you should be able to make. I persoally like trying to create a 1" group at 200 yards. It is a challenge. Could I do it with a bolt action single shot? Sure, but it would not be near as much fun. Kind of like going to the smaller canopy.
Now, the argument will come pointing out that a canopy will not kill multiple people. I say it will kill you, why have one?
There have been so few crimes commited with ar15 type rifles that is not an argument either.
I know these points are open to debate but I am just trying to put some context to this.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
first of all to answer your question:
fast follow up shots are preferable in order to dispatch game humanely.
Even the best hunters have had an animal run off and have to be tracked and put down, it happens.
Also the light recoil of the AR15 platform allows for many less experienced or smaller statured hunters to enjoy the hunting experience.
Disabled hunters rely on its ease of use for even those who may not have the use of both hands.
fast follow up shots are preferable in order to dispatch game humanely.
Even the best hunters have had an animal run off and have to be tracked and put down, it happens.
Also the light recoil of the AR15 platform allows for many less experienced or smaller statured hunters to enjoy the hunting experience.
Disabled hunters rely on its ease of use for even those who may not have the use of both hands.
From a Message I just read:
No, the .223 was derived from the Remington .222, at first by the engineers at the Small Arms branch at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and finalized by Eugene Stoner. My dad was the engineer that pretty much got the whole schv program rolling (G A Gustafson). He also did a lot of consulting work with Remington and other manufacturers including Colt and Ruger.
When I showed him Zumbo's comments I thought he was going to cry. As a life long hunter, small arms engineer and ballistician, competitive shooter, and staunch 2nd Amendment advocate, he thought he had seen it all. At 92 years of age his health has become very frail, and I seriously regret having showed him the article.
Thanks Zumbo - I hope your retirement finds you impoverished.
Thanks very much in advance to Remington for doing the right thing - and there is only one right thing to be done.
Gus
No, the .223 was derived from the Remington .222, at first by the engineers at the Small Arms branch at Aberdeen Proving Ground, and finalized by Eugene Stoner. My dad was the engineer that pretty much got the whole schv program rolling (G A Gustafson). He also did a lot of consulting work with Remington and other manufacturers including Colt and Ruger.
When I showed him Zumbo's comments I thought he was going to cry. As a life long hunter, small arms engineer and ballistician, competitive shooter, and staunch 2nd Amendment advocate, he thought he had seen it all. At 92 years of age his health has become very frail, and I seriously regret having showed him the article.
Thanks Zumbo - I hope your retirement finds you impoverished.
Thanks very much in advance to Remington for doing the right thing - and there is only one right thing to be done.
Gus
Isn't it amazing at what speed this guy fucked his career?
What's more amazing is how fast he fucked all of us.
What's more amazing is how fast he fucked all of us.
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Update 1459 - Gresham just mentioned ARF.com
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Update 1459 - Gresham just mentioned ARF.com
1969912 0
After reading the first few paragraphs, it's clear this guy is a major wanker. I have a Colt Sporter AR in 7.62x39 (dry sights), and have used it many times to hunt deer in close range (~100 yards) forest conditions. Seems to me that that rifle is great for that kind of hunting, as well as varminting. AK's and SKS's are fine too.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
QuoteZumbo want Dick Cheney to appologize....
Zumbo on Cheney and Hunter Safety....(From Outdoor Life Web Site)
"Hunters received a colossal black eye when Dick Cheney shot his companion during a hunting accident. The press predictably went into a feeding frenzy, and every day we’ve been treated with copious amounts of nasty press, bad jokes and outright idiocy. One re-occurring question is: how could this happen? How could anyone be so careless so as to shoot his hunting pal?
I understand precisely how it could have happened. Hunting accidents will not go away. Some forms of hunting are more dangerous than others, and I understand that turkey hunting has the worst safety record of all. Upland bird hunting is especially perilous for obvious reasons. There can be chaotic moments when flying birds present all sorts of targets, requiring the shooter to make split-second decisions.
I was almost involved in an accident 40 years ago that duplicates the Cheney incident. I was hunting woodcock with two buddies in a dense alder thicket. We all wore orange hats, and we called out frequently or whistled to signal our location. I was in the middle of a thicket, and my companions were on either side of me. At one point, a bird got up and my buddy to my left knocked it down. He walked up in front of me to retrieve it, and I assumed he went back to his position beside me since he walked off in that direction. He didn’t. At that time we entered a stand of thick cedars, and I didn’t know he was walking directly in front of me. A bird got up, I shouldered my gun, and was tracking it when suddenly I saw orange directly behind the bird. It was my pal. I jerked up the unfired gun and realized I could have shot him. I sat down on a log with the shakes and took awhile to compose myself.
What About the Beer?
Having said that I understand how Cheney’s accident could occur, I cannot abide with the beer he drank at lunch. I heard one argument that the accident occurred several hours after he had the beer, but do we know if he went hunting shortly after lunch? Whether he did or not, the consumption of alcohol anytime one is hunting or about to hunt is absolutely a bad deal. I don’t believe there are laws that say you can’t hunt with alcohol on your breath, but this is a matter of hunting ethics and safety, which is, of course, the primary reason we don’t drink and hunt.
Now then, I’ve had more than a few beers in my life, and I still enjoy a libation around the campfire when the guns are cleaned and put away. I’m not on a pulpit here, just expressing my disappointment. The Vice President should have known better. He should have stood by the moral code that all of us hunters subscribe to. And to add fuel to the fire, he was cited for not having the proper bird stamp. I can understand this, too, because nowadays most states require stamps for just about anything that runs, flies or crawls. But he should have been diligent enough to at least have had someone check for him.
This will blow over, though I’m not sure where Mr. Cheney’s political career will go. At the very least, I’d like to see him apologize to America’s hunters."
QuoteAs most of you would guess, there is a lot of activity inside the industry right now, despite it being a Sunday.
Another writer Bill McRea has stepped up supporting Zumbo and agreeing with his feelings on banning assault weapons.
Here is a email forwarded to me
On Sunday, February 18, 2007, at 01:17 PM, Bill McRae wrote:
Shirley and Friends
I agree wholeheartedly with Jim on this and I don't give a damn who does or does not like it. Furthermore, I applaud Jim for having
had the courage to say what he said.
Bill McRae
----- Original Message -----
From: Shirley Steffen
To: Karin Levine ; Lamar Underwood ; Bill McRae ; Bob Pilgrim - Taubert ; Ian McMurchy ; John Fasano ; John Phillips ; John Plaster ; Ted Nugent ; Wiley Clapp ; Walt Rauch ; Wayne Van Zwoll ; Lamar Underwood
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:27 AM
Subject: Fwd: Zumbo on 'terrorist rifles' in the hunting fields
He's not alone either, I had Thomas McIntyre get in my face once on a hunt with Swarovski. He was as rabid as anti-gun piece of shit that they should be banned. Bryce Townsley was there and Bryce and I both gave him hell
So Bill McRea and Thomas McIntyre are both pieces of shit you should be aware of.
David M. Fortier
Gene03 0
I sure do wish we all would stop using the anti-gun media generated term "Assault Weapons".
This term automatically generates fear in the brain dead, like it was designed to do.
Fuck people, a beer bottle can be used as an assualt weapon, or a defensive weapon.
Scarier still, we now have a new term "Terrorist" rifles.
How fucking cute.
This term automatically generates fear in the brain dead, like it was designed to do.
Fuck people, a beer bottle can be used as an assualt weapon, or a defensive weapon.
Scarier still, we now have a new term "Terrorist" rifles.
How fucking cute.
“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)
Zumbo should be forced to hunt polar bears and his only weapon is to yell "Boo!"
craddock 0
QuoteIf so, can you please give me some practical examples? Thanks.
A couple examples
I shoot several deer every year and the last two years I harvested multiple deer in a second’s time. Two years ago I found two does walking through the woods and had a small window to shoot. I waited for the deer to both step into an opening and took them both with two quick shots. This last year, after I had passed up several smaller buck early in the season, I was not getting any more acceptable shots to take. This changed Thanksgiving Day when I was two deer that were spooked running through the woods. When they came out into an opening I took them again in a one/two fashion. The second one dropped in its tracks while the first deer ran another 70 yards before going down. 20 minutes before I heard two quick consecutive shots in the direction I knew my dad was hunting. I tried to get him on the radio to see if he needed help but fortunately for me we had our channels mixed up. When I ran into him an hour later he asked where the hell I had been as he had two deer down and was looking for me to help him with one. He actually shot the second one for me because he knew I was looking for more meat. We harvested four deer in twenty minutes.
There are a lot of elderly people that hunt with Semi’s for the recoil reduction. I bought my (at the time) unborn son a 20 ga. Semi for the same reason. I shot around 30 birds last year. After being in multiple situations with multiple grouse flushing at one time I switched to using my sons semi. (I did not think he would mind and you have to make sure a firearm has all the kinks worked out before giving it to your child) I harvested four grouse in about 3- 4 seconds in a wooded area the next weekend. Not a chance that would happen with an O/U.
Not that anyone should need to have justification to hunt with a semi, but do you need any more?
That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.
1969912 0
I have a "traditional" bolt-action hunting rifle, as well as an AK-47 and an AR-15. For me, the rapid fire capabilities of the AK and AR don't really matter when it comes to game hunting. What is important to me is the fact that I can (in close range situations), stop walking, bring the lightweight AR from a safe carrying position to a shooting position, acquire the target, and hit within a 6" or less diam. bullseye at 100 yards in just a couple seconds. I have never been able to do that with a heavy rifle, especially with a scope. I would never take a shot thinking that a second rapid-fire shot will be necessary. I want to make a clean one-shot kill with no slop. If there is any doubt, I just won't fire. I have never needed to fire a second round, and only keep 3 rounds in the mag.
EDIT to add: There is something about the AR that makes it easy for a dork like me to aim, fire, and hit a target, first shot. Maybe that's why the military uses them.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
EDIT to add: There is something about the AR that makes it easy for a dork like me to aim, fire, and hit a target, first shot. Maybe that's why the military uses them.
"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG
Here is Ted getting ready for his big hunt with Jim Zumbo
I certainly have an opinion, however I won't add much to the 14 pages of comments already posted in that thread about Jim Zumbo.
Clearly, he doesn't understand the importance of resisting all forms of proposed gun control and all gun bans. Ronnie Barrett understands and that's why I support .50 BMG rifles for any honest citizen who can afford one.
One of the questions that hasn't been dealt with is what the hell Zumbo and Remington were doing shooting Coyotes with a .17 caliber rimfire round. Does Mr. Traditional, Ethical Hunter enjoy watching animals bleed out to a slow death?
We've got a Coyote problem in the hills around my house and I've got cats and dogs to protect. I don't have a bolt gun waiting to do the work. I've got my HBAR Colt and a thirty round mag of hollow points for the shots I may need to take.
So, yes, I'm appalled at the comments.
I can offer this possible insight: I last saw Jim Zumbo at the Smith & Wesson media day in Orlando during the SHOT Show. (Show runs on Feb. 28th-he's not in it.) We exchanged a few words, I've known him for many years, since he appeared doing some cooking segments on American Shooter about 15 years ago.
He was looking around the gathering at the test fire range and commented that he was now the oldest member of the gun media. Perhaps we now know he's old enough to have lost his understanding of modern firearms and their proper uses.
Jim Scoutten
Shooting USA
Clearly, he doesn't understand the importance of resisting all forms of proposed gun control and all gun bans. Ronnie Barrett understands and that's why I support .50 BMG rifles for any honest citizen who can afford one.
One of the questions that hasn't been dealt with is what the hell Zumbo and Remington were doing shooting Coyotes with a .17 caliber rimfire round. Does Mr. Traditional, Ethical Hunter enjoy watching animals bleed out to a slow death?
We've got a Coyote problem in the hills around my house and I've got cats and dogs to protect. I don't have a bolt gun waiting to do the work. I've got my HBAR Colt and a thirty round mag of hollow points for the shots I may need to take.
So, yes, I'm appalled at the comments.
I can offer this possible insight: I last saw Jim Zumbo at the Smith & Wesson media day in Orlando during the SHOT Show. (Show runs on Feb. 28th-he's not in it.) We exchanged a few words, I've known him for many years, since he appeared doing some cooking segments on American Shooter about 15 years ago.
He was looking around the gathering at the test fire range and commented that he was now the oldest member of the gun media. Perhaps we now know he's old enough to have lost his understanding of modern firearms and their proper uses.
Jim Scoutten
Shooting USA
From what I can see on the other thread, you guys definitely got Remington's attention.
Jim Scoutten
Shooting USA
Jim Scoutten
Shooting USA
jenfly00 0
QuoteQuoteEvery NRA Member should call Tueday Morning to his places of employment demanding his termination of employment and or membership.
He will no longer ever be read by ANYONE I know and I will make it a point to see he is remembered as being an opponent of the Second Ammendment to the US Constitution.
Jesus H Christ dude, over react much!?
Well, at least he hasn't threatened to kill him ...yet.
-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
"O brave new world that has such people in it".
Hey sorry I fucked all of you in the ass!
Can we be friends now?
Hey I am a good guy, send me your money.
Ted Nugent will hear from me TODAY!!!
Ted will not be very happy.
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