Is anyone still stupid enough to believe that the Repubs are for worker's rights?

[Lucky... 0]

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I think a trip to China might give you a different outlook.

I didn't say the worse, I could suggest a trip to many European countries. They work 35 hr/wk many of them, get several weeks a year vacation too. China is a low standard and teh US is likely below the Mason-Dixon line as for worker's conditions.

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Exactly! The ones that make too many concessions go out of business. The ones that make too _few_ (i.e. treat employees like shit) go out of business. The ones that strike the right tradeoff are the ones that do well.

This sounds like the 3 bears argument. Unfortunatley I don't think it's true, I think the employers that fuck companies do very well, some of the companies that treat their employees well do alright, but cutting teh bottom line is the key.

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To use your rhetoric, the people fucking over workers go out of business because everyone quits. The people treating workers like kings and queens go out of business because no one wants to spend $5000 for a cellphone. The ones that strike the right balance between worker pay, benefits, bonuses etc and product cost stay in business.

Unfortunately employers usually have the upper hand, esp when a Repub is in office, so they get to call teh shots. Now for professionals, things are different as they have more bargaining power, perhaps that's where you get your notions from.

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Uh, no. I just work at places that treat me well. That's all the "unionization" I need.

Good for you, but that could change in 15 minutes and you would be considering a union.

[billvon 3,120]

>I think the employers that fuck companies do very well, some of the
>companies that treat their employees well do alright, but cutting teh
>bottom line is the key.

Did you mean employees that fuck companies do very well? Some do indeed - but that' s because we do have pretty decent workers-rights laws here in the US. In many cases it's sufficient to claim "you're firing me because I'm a woman!" (or some other baseless claim) and you keep your job.

Cutting the bottom line is the key - agreed there. It's what all companies have to do to stay in business.

>Good for you, but that could change in 15 minutes and you would be
>considering a union.

I'd actually be considering another job.

[Lucky... 0]

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Did you mean employees that fuck companies do very well?

Oops, I meant to write, Employer that fuck employees do very well.

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Some do indeed - but that' s because we do have pretty decent workers-rights laws here in the US.

As compared to China, I'll give you that one.

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In many cases it's sufficient to claim "you're firing me because I'm a woman!" (or some other baseless claim) and you keep your job.

How about for a white male? Oh yea, there are none.

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I'd actually be considering another job.

If you are in a career that has many options, good for you.

[billvon 3,120]

>How about for a white male?

Claim it's because you're gay, or Wiccan. (Note that since it's illegal for them to ascertain if you really are, you are home free.) I've seen the gay angle work before.

[Lucky... 0]

I'll get fired thanks.

I'm not trying to say that employees don't pull shit, I'm trying to say that employers have the deck stacked by this POS pres and former Repug Congress.

[mnealtx 0]

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I don't care if union leadership gets what pay.

But yet, you HOWL about CEO pay - a bit of hypocrisy there, don't you think?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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I think a trip to China might give you a different outlook.

I didn't say the worse, I could suggest a trip to many European countries. They work 35 hr/wk many of them, get several weeks a year vacation too. China is a low standard and teh US is likely below the Mason-Dixon line as for worker's conditions.

Yes, and they pay 45% tax or more to support that and everything is accordingly more expensive.

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Exactly! The ones that make too many concessions go out of business. The ones that make too _few_ (i.e. treat employees like shit) go out of business. The ones that strike the right tradeoff are the ones that do well.

This sounds like the 3 bears argument. Unfortunatley I don't think it's true, I think the employers that fuck companies do very well, some of the companies that treat their employees well do alright, but cutting teh bottom line is the key.

If they were 'fucking the employees' (at least, I think that's what your typo up there is) that badly, then the employees would quit and the company would go out of business.

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To use your rhetoric, the people fucking over workers go out of business because everyone quits. The people treating workers like kings and queens go out of business because no one wants to spend $5000 for a cellphone. The ones that strike the right balance between worker pay, benefits, bonuses etc and product cost stay in business.

Unfortunately employers usually have the upper hand, esp when a Repub is in office, so they get to call teh shots. Now for professionals, things are different as they have more bargaining power, perhaps that's where you get your notions from.

It's called the free market. The company is free to set a price that they will hire people at, and the people are free to work for that price. As for "bargaining power", sorry... but an apprentice carpenter isn't going to get hired at the same rate as a master carpenter.

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Uh, no. I just work at places that treat me well. That's all the "unionization" I need.

Good for you, but that could change in 15 minutes and you would be considering a union.

Oh, absolutely... another layer of wasting money and demanding concessions that (in many cases) hurt the company that I work for... what a great idea!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

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I think the company is the villain, you say the union is,

wrong again.

I say - sometimes the company is the villain, sometimes the union is. Both are comprised of people. Why is that such a hard concept for you to accept?

To me, the 'individual's' rights are the most important. Organized groups with power mongering leaders (unions and corps) come second. Corps are for corps, unions are for unions. Not for the little guy.

An individual can make his vote public during a private vote just by speaking up.

An individual can NOT make his vote private during a public vote.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

It seems like some view the world in absolute black and white terms, with no interest in observing shades of gray.

Bummer.

[Lucky... 0]

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I don't care if union leadership gets what pay.

But yet, you HOWL about CEO pay - a bit of hypocrisy there, don't you think?

1) Several million $ as compared to far, far less - same thing.

2) The context of that statement was that union leadership shouldn't be receiving huge py in light of strikes. I'm saying that I agree, I don't defend them getting pay either, so your micrcosm of a point is out of context once again.

Don't you have the sack to answer the 3 questions I have posted for pages now? Hmmm, guess not, just keep picking statements out of context and making a million microcosmic arguments and resisting the bigger ones.

[Lucky... 0]

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Yes, and they pay 45% tax or more to support that and everything is accordingly more expensive.

1) You act as I'm defending the Chinese government. I'm saying they are one of the worst, so I can only agree with you as you are trying to dig a point against me. Mike, the 3 questions; answer them.

2) I dislike Communism and can hardly make an argument for them, I am a Socialist, a far cry from Communism, altho not to you I understand.

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It's called the free market. The company is free to set a price that they will hire people at, and the people are free to work for that price. As for "bargaining power", sorry... but an apprentice carpenter isn't going to get hired at the same rate as a master carpenter.

And when your Nazi in Chief tells workers on several occassions that if they strike he will void their contract, well, the free just left free mrket.

This isn't an argument over apprentice workers receiving journeyman pay, just answer the 3 questions and quit the duck-n-run.

Also, in non-RTW states, the laws are different and teh company must allow for the collective bargaining or attempt to throw out the union.

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Oh, absolutely... another layer of wasting money and demanding concessions that (in many cases) hurt the company that I work for... what a great idea!

You consider it that Right, certain concessions hurt the company, other hurt the worker. The idea of collective bargaining is that the workers speak as one voice. Pro-company individuals don't care that an individual is far more succesptable to being screwed by the company rather than ating as a part of a group.

[Lucky... 0]

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wrong again.

I say - sometimes the company is the villain, sometimes the union is. Both are comprised of people. Why is that such a hard concept for you to accept?

I was writing generally. I avoid using absolutes, but may by acident, don't think I was there. I think that generally the company is out for cheap, cheap, cheap, tehunion must have their guy working in order to make money, so they tend to care about descent pay and safety - the stats fully support that.

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To me, the 'individual's' rights are the most important. Organized groups with power mongering leaders (unions and corps) come second. Corps are for corps, unions are for unions. Not for the little guy.

Me too, and individual rights are defended by what? REPRESENTATION. Under the 6th Amendment you have a right to counsel if charged with a crime, that is how individual rights are defended. Do you think a group of blue-collars have a chance as individuals against a corp? Fuck no, you want them to stand alone unrepresented. Let me guess, are you also a company owner?

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An individual can make his vote public during a private vote just by speaking up.

And a company can fix an election. Why the secrecy? Oh yea, you are a fan of this admin, my bad.

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An individual can NOT make his vote private during a public vote.

Fortunately for you the Repubs are tough guys with solid character who are men's men and they wear their toughness om their sleeve, unlike those sissy liberals who run and hide what they're about.

Answer the 3 questions.

[Lucky... 0]

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It seems like some view the world in absolute black and white terms, with no interest in observing shades of gray.

Bummer.

Thx for the input, that was so insighful.

Answer the 3 questions.

[rehmwa 2]

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I avoid using absolutes,

nonsense,

you don't believe in the individual, only collectives of various kinds

all corps are evil

all Dems are goodness

all Reps are evil

unions are for the good of people

people cannot be individuals and make their own choices

even small businesses that lose money in order to keep their employees in a job are evil

anyone that asks you a question instead of blindly following your sophomore level philosophy is a company owner, and worships this current ineffective administration (composed of both dems and reps)

you are the soul of stereotyping and absolutes

be proud, wallow in it

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Let me guess, are you also a company owner?

wrong again, though my wife sews jumpsuits, has no employees and lost a ton of money last year getting started - you think she's evil?

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you are a fan of this admin,

wrong again, you are wrong even in your stereotypes which you love

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lucky... 0]

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you don't believe in the individual, only collectives of various kinds

Wrong, to believe in the rights of individuals you must have representation, at least that's what that little Constitution thing says. I'm guessing you believe in the executing people, even tho there are mistakes. A real believer in teh rights of individuals rather than the whole.

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anyone that asks you a question instead of blindly following your sophomore level philosophy is a company owner, and worships this current ineffective administration (composed of both dems and reps)

Sophomire level? Yea, all Ido is to post facts, data, etc, all I see here is rhetoric. Go address some of teh mountain of evidence. Won't happen.

Dems and Reps inneffective? I see, so other than teh whig party, we have always been Dem or Rep and we are inneffective. Perhaps go draw me a picture of your utopian concept that the church will solve all of societies ills by way of the tithing tray.....assumng you are advocating the Libertarian Party. I've never had anyine give me a framework of how that is supposed to work, the church care for all of the disabled people.

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wrong again, though my wife sews jumpsuits, has no employees and lost a ton of money last year getting started - you think she's evil?

Well, she married you didn't she? Don't be evasive, the Boeings, 3M's,etc are the big corps that suck, not the privateer. Can you understand this argument at all?

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wrong again, you are wrong even in your stereotypes which you love

Libertarians are disgruntled Repubs, just as Greenies are disgruntled Dems. Save it man, your ideologies parallel teh Repubs, not that it matters either way to answer teh thread question and ultimatley the 3 questions which you guys insist on ducking.

[rehmwa 2]

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your ideologies parallel the Repubs, .

Cal me fiscally conservative and for individual rights and responsibilities -

That parallels what the reps are saying and a lot of what dems are saying too (recall both are trying to 'appeal' to the moderates - then they get in and do whatever they can to gain power), It does not parallel what either are doing.

What today's reps are doing parallels the dems. No difference anymore. Both are on their way to your socialist dream.

Greens and Libertarians - there you go, dump people into your nice little bucket of bias and assumptions.

Lots of disgruntled dems are also libertarian at heart.

I don't really understand the greens at all. But I've only ever talked to the ones that really off center.

The church? Where did that come from? More of your prejudice and stereotyping of people that don't fit in your little preconceived notions? If another power hungry organization like organized religion wants to tithe their way to utopia, I don't see how that's ANY different than your theory of government taxing our way to utopia "for the good of the unwashed masses".

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lucky... 0]

quote]Cal me fiscally conservative and for individual rights and responsibilities -

Yes, that is the Repub platform, so tehy say, but look at the last 18 years of Republicans directly responsible for over 70% of the entire debt and we can safely call it lip service.

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That parallels what the reps are saying and a lot of what dems are saying too (recall both are trying to 'appeal' to the moderates - then they get in and do whatever they can to gain power), It does not parallel what either are doing.

Yes they both say it, but no, the Repubs don't do it, the Dems have - need proof?

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What today's reps are doing parallels the dems. No difference anymore. Both are on their way to your socialist dream.

So that's the spin now, the Dems fighting the war cost and now they are the overspenders, yet they are somehow culpable? Nice, even tho Clinton stopped the debt increase, his predecessors both slammed it hard and so has his successor, but the dems are responsible somehow. Perhaps you can explain how:

http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

Just skim over, of course you will.

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The church? Where did that come from? More of your prejudice and stereotyping of people that don't fit in your little preconceived notions?

If you would have read and cited the statement you would see this:

Perhaps go draw me a picture of your utopian concept that the church will solve all of societies ills by way of the tithing tray

The Libertarians think the church can handle the multi-billion$ task of resolving all of the medical ills of the country, so I ask as I ask all Libertarians to tell me how that can work.

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If another power hungry organization like organized religion wants to tithe their way to utopia, I don't see how that's ANY different than your theory of government taxing our way to utopia "for the good of the unwashed masses".

You really don’t understand your own party’s platform.

[rehmwa 2]

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Yes, that is the Repub platform, so tehy say,

"so tehy [sic] say" agreed, politicians 'say' a lot of nice things

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You really don’t understand your own party’s platform.

which party might that be? I'd rather vote for a candidate, not a party. Of course, that takes a little more time than just blindly pulling one of the big levers like some do.

Kool-Aid is full of sugar, it might taste good, but it rots your teeth.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TheAnvil 0]

Anti union rant? One wonders what post you were reading, but as always, you're good for quite the chuckle.

One would assume that union workers do better in union shops because union workers do not work in non-union shops, but assume whatever you like. Quite curious as to what data you're referring. Toyota workers are doing quite better than GM workers right now, still having jobs and the like.

'Working families' - to whom, exactly is this referring? As I stated earlier, there are very few Americans who don't actually work. I tend to laugh at such tools of class envy.

I wonder which economy you're seeing, stating 'as bad as they are now,' because the American economy is doing quite well.

if you can't see why the Senate is the more rational of the two chambers of the Legislative branch, reread the Constitution for a bit and focus on Article 1, sections two and three. Read them a few times and it should come to you. You might check out the seventeenth ammendment as well, which makes the Senate a bit less rational than the Founding Fathers' original intent. Madison's remarks in some of his writings are quite eloquent on the matter.

Odd you would think raising the minimum wage is pro-worker. Few workers earn the minimum wage who are working a full time job and raising it does nothing but increase prices in the long run.

I'll go anywhere and state that few people in America don't actually work. Will you go into rural Appalachia and tell a coal miner you support racially discriminatory programs that give sons and daughters of lawyers and doctors advantages over his children when applying for college or federal employment? Both are statements of fact, unless I'm mistaken and you don't support race based affirmative action.

If you'd examined the ergonomics bill, you would have realized it was flawed. The notion that killing such a bill without examining its merits is preposterous in its own right.

The bill in your original post is quite humorous when viewed with regards to workers' rights. If the leftists would like it easier to FORM a union in the workplace, then they should also support the rights of workers in unionized workplaces who no longer desire a union to vote the union out in an easier manner than is in place today. Make it easier for both sides and see how the unions fare. I don't think they'd fare very well. The left, as usual, supports the rights of those who agree with them to act in ways that the left desires. Anyone else's rights are to be trampled without regard, in their view.

If you think management overpaid then by all means think that. In some cases, perhaps, they might be. That's not something for the government to regulate.

There are reasons there are so few people from former communist nations pushing the socialist/anti-globalization/pro-union position. They've seen that it doesn't work and want no part of it.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Lucky... 0]

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"so tehy [sic] say" agreed, politicians 'say' a lot of nice things

So you're out of arguments, resorting to typos? Repugnicans seem to say a lot more things that either don't come to fruition or that unfortunately do.

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which party might that be? I'd rather vote for a candidate, not a party. Of course, that takes a little more time than just blindly pulling one of the big levers like some do.

I'd say you're the one being aloof, but we can see where you're comming from.

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Kool-Aid is full of sugar, it might taste good, but it rots your teeth.

Is that what your dentist told you? Better cut down.

[rehmwa 2]

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"so tehy [sic] say" agreed, politicians 'say' a lot of nice things

So you're out of arguments, resorting to typos?

I agreed with you and you still find an argument. Cool.

I think you might be contentious.

(no I'm not)

yes you are

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lucky... 0]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070227/ap_on_go_co/congress_security_9

In case anyone is unsure as to the Republican stance on unions

[DaVinci 0]

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I don't care if union leadership gets what pay.

So you are OK with those fat cats, but not others.

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Senioity is at the forefront of union membership. These evaluations are subjective and the union wants that removed from employment. As workers get older they can perform less, but their knowledge is valuable.

Good evaluations will take care of the difference between knowledge and ability. In a world where you cannot rate on performance you get a bunch of folks that feel entitled to the pay.

I think pay for performance is much better than pay "just cause".

[DaVinci 0]

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So, once again, you are wrong, Clinton signed the only min wage increase that was ever put in front of him and it even included more huge giveaways to the rich as a concession.

Sorry you are wrong. You wanna avoid the FACT that the Dems killed the earlier bill...Fine., But that is your normal motive, you avoid anything that hurts your position....Ya know like Clinton saying he would Veto a bill with the SAME tax cuts that the current bill includes.

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HR3846 was funneled into HR3081. Who cares who did it

Who did it is important....You are free to ignore it if you like, but the earlier bill was killed by the Dems.

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Why a campaign issue, to argue that Dems are for workers and Repubs are not?

Yep, just like the title of this post.

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Show where employees are getting fired for an additional buck an hour.

How about SF?

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"We think it will cost us $180,000 to $200,000 a year for just those three increases,'' said Dave Stanton, managing partner of Tres Agaves, the Mexican restaurant near AT&T Park that opened to rave reviews in October. "I'm going to have to raise prices for all my drinks and appetizers a dollar and entrees two dollars. I don't know how else to do it.''

His is a common refrain among restaurateurs in a city synonymous with fine dining, where tourism rules the economy. The three new mandates, they say, will have the unintended consequences of reducing workers' hours and blemishing the city's reputation for hospitality.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=176738

AZ?
We even talked about it on here concerning AZ http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2664632#2664632

"New wage boost puts squeeze on teenage workers across Arizona" (The Arizona Republic)

Mark Messner, owner of Pepi's Pizza in south Phoenix, estimates he has employed more than 2,000 high school students since 1990. But he plans to lay off three teenage workers and decrease hours worked by others. Of his 25-person workforce, roughly 75 percent are in high school.

"I've had to go to some of my kids and say, 'Look, my payroll just increased 13 percent,' " he said. " 'Sorry, I don't have any hours for you.' "

Messner's monthly cost to train an employee has jumped from $440 to $580 as the turnover rate remains high.


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Marshall Vest, director of economic and business research at the UA, said that on the state level, businesses that pay minimum wage, like fast food restaurants, will likely need to increase their prices to pay the higher wages.

http://media.wildcat.arizona.edu/media/storage/paper997/news/2007/01/11/News/New-Min.Wage.May.Increase.Food.Prices.In.Student.Union-2625984-page2.shtml

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No, he did sign one that went into effect in 97, he said he would veto it with all the packed goodies.

Yet the SAME thing now is fine...See how the Dems played politics (repubs do it also, but don't claim the Dems didn't)? Back then it was a bad idea, now they will play ball....They could have done it 10 years ago. In the mean time they gave themselves 30 grand in raises.

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I asked for more clarification: “This is from when? Can you provide cites as I do? Was this the min wage under Clinton or now?”

I answered it and you ignored it....It is now. So care to claim only 3 republicans in the senate? See how that goes against your tittle to this thread?

[DaVinci 0]

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And a company can fix an election.

So could a Union....That why when a vote is called for the GOVERNMENT steps in and oversees the whole thing.

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The signed cards are used (and required) to petition the state or federal labor board to hold an election. It will take the labor board at least several weeks to determine who is eligible to vote and schedule the election.

From the UE website http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/org_steps.html

Have you ever worked in a Union shop? Ever been involved in a Union trying to get your shop to become Union?

It seems like you never have.