Chicago Considers a Bullet Tax

[kelpdiver 2]

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My reasoning is that this tax targets folk who will pay the taxes. If your $30 box of ammo now costs $40, then as Kennedy said, you'd probably grumble, but pay up. Unless you're able and willing to make a $500+ ammunition purchase, then it probably isn't worth your while to travel the 60 miles (In Kallends example) to buy your ammunition cheaper. The cost of getting it would be greater than the money you save on buying it.

I need to correct those 30/40$ figures, Mike. A box of 500 in .22LR runs 10-20$, and would thus have $50 in taxes at the lower 10 cent rate. 250-500% tax.

Most larger rounds are ~50-100%. 9mm might be $120 for 1000, while more expensive calibers can run 200-250$ per case. Even at your gas prices, a 60 mile drive is the clear choice. Carpool.

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So... The effect of the tax will be to raise money for Cook County. They still come out ahead since even if local ammunition sales fall, some ammunition will still be bought locally so they get money they otherwise wouldn't.
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Again, I'll cite UK Tobacco Tax (history) to further illustrate my point. In the 1950's, the government of the time wanted to eliminate or drastically reduce tobacco use on health grounds, so they introduced prohibitive taxation on tobacco products (heading up to 1,000%)! Their motives at the time were clear and publicly stated. THe actual effect wasn't what they wanted, instead, tobacco sales stayed near constant but govenment revenue went up! So... They kept the extra money, but still say that they want us to stop. Meanwhile, tobacco, and more importantly, ANY TOBACCO SUBSTITUTE attracts this massive tax.

Tobacco taxes are in their own little realm due to the addictive nature of nicotine. It is also the only one I'm aware of where the tax can now represent 50% (or more) of the cost of the item. In the majority of sin taxes, the consumer can opt to stop, or to find a lower taxed substitute. A smoker cannot immediately quite, and many never do. The tax appears much more successful at reducing new smokers than eliminating current ones, who pay till they die. I think you could justify this if the money were used for health purposes, but we now have smokers paying for day care centers and (attempted initiative in California) for emergency rooms.

But everyone can choose to shoot less often, or not at all. Guns do not have any addictive qualities, nor the ability to mind control their owners. A 100-500% tax will result in people buying elsewhere so long as its available, and then hardly buying at all.

[kallend 2,182]

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Can you point us to any message that you've ever written in which you defended gun rights against an attack by an anti-gun person?

Why would I need to do that when you are around.

So let's see if I've got this straight.

1) You claim here to be pro-gun.
2) You never defend gun rights here.

WRONG. On a number of occasions I have quite specifically supported the 2nd Amendment as an individual right, and gone so far as to say that citizens should be allowed more appropriate militia weapons than are currently permitted. I oppose ANY government encroachment on individual rights.

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2284566#2284566

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1562531#1562531

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1563229#1563229

www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2414906#2414906

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And yet you expect us to believe #1?

Since your world view with respect to guns is just black and white, I don't expect you to recognize a more complex position at all.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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On a number of occasions I have quite specifically supported the 2nd Amendment...

Gosh, you had to go back five years to find just four examples of your pro-gun statements. They're as rare as hen's teeth!

We only have to go back a week to find at least four anti-gun statements from you in a single day.

That's how skewed your presentation is here on this issue.

Maybe you should entertain us some time and prove to us that you are actually capable of countering an anti-gun statement.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I oppose ANY government encroachment on individual rights.

This sort of taxation on ammunition easily meets the requirement of "ANY."

[kallend 2,182]

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I oppose ANY government encroachment on individual rights.

This sort of taxation on ammunition easily meets the requirement of "ANY."

Not really, the Constitution quite clearly allows taxation and other duties, and doesn't exclude specific items.

IL charges tax on magazines. Following your logic, it could be argued (not by me) that this constitutes an infringement on the 1st Amdt.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,182]

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On a number of occasions I have quite specifically supported the 2nd Amendment...

Gosh, you had to go back five years to find just four examples of your pro-gun statements. They're as rare as hen's teeth!

We only have to go back a week to find at least four anti-gun statements from you in a single day.

That's how skewed your presentation is here on this issue.

Maybe you should entertain us some time and prove to us that you are actually capable of countering an anti-gun statement.

Well, tough shit, John. Sorry you are unable to compehend an opinion about criminology that isn't just straight pro or anti gun. I think others can see my point even if you can't.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

I like beer.

I do not like haggis.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[ExAFO 0]

You can simply go to Lake, DuPage, Kane, or Will Counties.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[kallend 2,182]

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I like beer.

I do not like haggis.

Ditto. Last time I barfed was due to haggis. Well, haggis and beer. Well, haggis, beer and Scotch too. But I blame the haggis.

Last time I go to a Hogmanay party!

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[1969912 0]

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Maybe you should entertain us some time and prove to us that you are actually capable of countering an anti-gun statement.

Not gonna happen. Also note how often his comments are ignored. He is self-limiting.

edit: typo

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[kallend 2,182]

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Maybe you should entertain us some time and prove to us that you are actually capable of countering an anti-gun statement.

Not gonna happen. Also not how often his comments are ignored. He is self-limiting.

I'm truly impressed that you monitor the responses to my posts so carefully. What flattery! I must have made quite an impression on you.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

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Maybe you should entertain us some time and prove to us that you are actually capable of countering an anti-gun statement.

Not gonna happen. Also not how often his comments are ignored. He is self-limiting.

I'm truly impressed that you monitor the responses to my posts so carefully. What flattery! I must have made quite an impression on you.

He's got a fetish for all things English.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

We are in a County that is suffering major budget issues right now. There is going to be a 17% flat cut on county staff and this includes the doctors and nurses at the county hospital. As it stands, most of Chicago can only use bullets for hunting guns as handguns are banned here, so it won't impact too many (Chicago is part of Cook County, as is the Chicago Metro Burbs).

I am MUCH more concerned about the massive health care issue in Cook County and how it is about to get worse over the next few weeks. I have personally experienced this. During the two weeks I was without insurance I ended up with an inury to my foot that prevented me from walking. I had to deal with the county system during that time. It is FAR worse than the press lets you know. Just to see my doctor I had to wait over 10 hours, then they lost me for an addition 4 hours, only to wait 2 moure hours once I was 'found.' I only had to deal with this on the short term. There are many others that have it far worse. This wait time is directly connected to how understaffed the county hospital system is. Did you know it is a 10 hour wait time just to pick up your montly medicare or social security prescriptions....think about that, our sick ederly population in Chicago has to wait 10 hours every 30 days just to get their meds. If the window closes before they get their meds they have to come back the next day because there is no room in the budget for overtime.

If this tax means that our county health care system may be able to function a bit more, then I am all for it....and I could care less what the NRA or anyone else has to say about it. They can get off their parnoid pulpit and come back to the reality of what it takes for a County this big to survive. Gain some damn perspective.

When you live in a big city you get taxed on everything, get over it or move. Do you think my $80 license sticker and $75 vehicle sticker is part of a vast comspiracy against cars? What about my recently increased electrical rates....or that they put parking meters in my neighborhood.....or that our sin tax is HUGE on items like smokes, beer, etc....

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ExAFO 0]

...But they did ban Foie Gras...so that's...something...I guess.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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...But they did ban Foie Gras...so that's...something...I guess.

And Ald Natarus of Chicago's 42nd ward has pushed thru odder things than that. But since he has been on the City Council for over 40 years I guess we don't mind. For those that don't know, the 42nd is THE district in Chicago that includes all of downtown and the Gold Coast. 42nd = Chicago's money. Well, it is an election year, so we will see what happens.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[kelpdiver 2]

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When you live in a big city you get taxed on everything, get over it or move. Do you think my $80 license sticker and $75 vehicle sticker is part of a vast comspiracy against cars? What about my recently increased electrical rates....or that they put parking meters in my neighborhood.....or that our sin tax is HUGE on items like smokes, beer, etc....

Outside of smokes, nothing is taxed at 100% (or 500%) of the item's value. That 80$ license sticker is a tiny portion of the cost of car ownership, and that money (and the gas taxes) pay for the road infrastructure.

If this were a penny a bullet, people would still be bitching, but with far less cause. It would be hardly different than sales tax.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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When you live in a big city you get taxed on everything, get over it or move. Do you think my $80 license sticker and $75 vehicle sticker is part of a vast comspiracy against cars? What about my recently increased electrical rates....or that they put parking meters in my neighborhood.....or that our sin tax is HUGE on items like smokes, beer, etc....

Outside of smokes, nothing is taxed at 100% (or 500%) of the item's value. That 80$ license sticker is a tiny portion of the cost of car ownership, and that money (and the gas taxes) pay for the road infrastructure.

That license sticker is only one of more than a dozen ways the county, state and city tax me on my car. There is a much larger percentage that goes right towards the tax of the item.Then there is the gas tax that increases every year as well. The IDOT toll roads pay for our road infrastructure. By comparison, my sister pays $20 for her sticker just 15 min from me in the next county over.

Every year there is talk of 'whats next' in regards to new or upgraded taxes in this city. Nothing in Cook County is immune to the tax axe here. That is just part of living in this County and in Chicago.

As I said before, the bigger picture here is that more money is needed for life/death reasons in this county. I'm in favor of the tax.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,132]

Given the choice, I'd rather have higher taxes on "sin" and recreation items (and yes, that includes skydiving) than on homeowners and workers. A single working mother of 2 can simply not buy skydives, or cigarettes, or alcohol, or bullets, and thus not pay the tax. She cannot choose to not buy food. She cannot (practially) choose to not work.

[justinb138 0]

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Given the choice, I'd rather have higher taxes on "sin" and recreation items (and yes, that includes skydiving) than on homeowners and workers. A single working mother of 2 can simply not buy skydives, or cigarettes, or alcohol, or bullets, and thus not pay the tax. She cannot choose to not buy food. She cannot (practially) choose to not work.

Given the choice, I'd rather the government be more responsible about what they spend money on.

[billvon 3,132]

>Given the choice, I'd rather the government be more responsible about what they spend money on.

I would as well. But there will always need to be _some_ level of taxation to pay for our military. And I'd prefer them to be optional instead of mandatory taxes.

[rehmwa 2]

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>Given the choice, I'd rather the government be more responsible about what they spend money on.

I would as well. But there will always need to be _some_ level of taxation to pay for our military. And I'd prefer them to be optional instead of mandatory taxes.

ahh, the Fair Tax strikes again

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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If this tax means that our county health care system may be able to function a bit more, then I am all for it....and I could care less what the NRA or anyone else has to say about it.

Well all right then - infringe upon everyone's constitutional rights equally. As long as you don't have to wait a few hours in the hospital, then that's all okay.

How about a dollar tax for every newspaper purchase? How about a dollar tax every time you go vote in an election? How about a dollar tax every time a police officer drives down your street?

How about you pay for your own hospital bill instead of expecting the county taxpayers to take care of you?

If the county has cut 17% of their spending and that's still not enough, then that just shows how whacko out of control they were in the first place. Politicians and county managers should be losing their jobs over this.

[JohnRich 4]

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Gosh, you had to go back five years to find just four examples of your pro-gun statements. They're as rare as hen's teeth!

We only have to go back a week to find at least four anti-gun statements from you in a single day.

That's how skewed your presentation is here on this issue.

Maybe you should entertain us some time and prove to us that you are actually capable of countering an anti-gun statement.

Well, tough shit, John. Sorry you are unable to compehend an opinion about criminology that isn't just straight pro or anti gun. I think others can see my point even if you can't.

Gosh, don't get so upset.

Here's a chance for you to show us your pro-gun side. The following is a quote yesterday from the news:

"Rudy Giuliani addressed a potentially troublesome issue with conservative voters, saying his policies as mayor to get handguns off the street helped reduce crime in New York. 'I used gun control as mayor,' he said. But 'I understand the Second Amendment. I understand the right to bear arms.' He said what he did as mayor would have no effect on hunting."

So, kallend, please put on your pro-gun hat and tell us what is wrong with presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani's statement. Let's see if you can do it. Just once, let's see you defend an incorrect statement against the 2nd Amendment.

I'm sure the rest of you pro-gun guys can spot the problem immediately. But hold off for a little while and let's give kallend a chance to speak first. The podium is yours, kallend...

[kallend 2,182]

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If the county has cut 17% of their spending and that's still not enough, then that just shows how whacko out of control they were in the first place. Politicians and county managers should be losing their jobs over this.

Yes, they should. However, there is an institutionalized problem at the state level concerning the way property values are determined in Cook Co. for the purposes of property taxes, resulting in county tax revenues being artificially low from this source.

Yes, it's all fucked up.

No, I haven't a clue how to deal with it, and I don't think anyone else does either.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

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As I said before, the bigger picture here is that more money is needed for life/death reasons in this county. I'm in favor of the tax.

So raise the tax on the traditional sins: Alcohol and Tobacco. Why would the City council want to tempt the bottomless pockets of the NRA-ILA with this misguided bill??

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.