ZigZagMarquis 9 #26 October 24, 2006 Quote1. If there are a bunch of groups, the first out should not expect the "perfect spot", that DOES hose the last groups out. "Perfect spot" not withstanding... nor should the first group be expected to take a spot so short they can't make it back either... and the last groups not checking the spot before getting out is them hosing themselves regardless of how much blame spewed towards the first group... but... oh... wait... DOH!... I forgot to put the [sarcasm]... [/sarcasm] tags on my orig... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #27 October 24, 2006 In my opinion the official line on spotting can be found here http://www.iit.edu/~ugcol/separation.zip Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #28 October 24, 2006 Quote 1. If each jumper spots individually, how long would it it take for let's say 20 jumpers to leave a fast plane?? This is simply not done. In the four or five seconds between the jumps I CANNOT sufficiently survey my area of view. It takes maybe 1-2 seconds to look out the door and find your LZ once you're familiar with your dropzone. At lot of people don't do that, so when they land out it's their fault. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #29 October 24, 2006 Amen brother! Anyway... the more I think about it... the more I feel the un-written Official Line on Spotting which lurks in the back of every DZOs mind is... "I don't want to F*ckin' hear about what jump run or where the spot is as long as it doen't cost me money." ... dang, forgot that [sarcasm]... [/sarcasm] tags again... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #30 October 25, 2006 QuoteAnyway... the more I think about it... the more I feel the un-written Official Line on Spotting which lurks in the back of every DZOs mind is... "I don't want to F*ckin' hear about what jump run or where the spot is as long as it doen't cost me money." Well I don't know about the DZO, but our chief instructor (S&TA equivalent) will give grief to the JM anytime there is a really bad spot. He would much rather see a go-around than jumpers landing off (and we have huge outs)Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #31 October 25, 2006 [sarcasm]... jumping on them and giving them grief for a bad spot!!??! bet he's never once complimented them on their many good spots!! ... what a butt-hole!! [/sarcasam] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #32 October 25, 2006 QuoteQuote1. If there are a bunch of groups, the first out should not expect the "perfect spot", that DOES hose the last groups out. "Perfect spot" not withstanding... nor should the first group be expected to take a spot so short they can't make it back either... and the last groups not checking the spot before getting out is them hosing themselves regardless of how much blame spewed towards the first group... but... oh... wait... DOH!... I forgot to put the [sarcasm]... [/sarcasm] tags on my orig... I don't think I ever suggested that the first group out should take a spot so short they can't get back. However, it is my experience that often the first out don't take an acceptable spot, they wait for the perfect spot. I fail to see the need for your series of "".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #33 October 25, 2006 QuoteYeah, I've seen similar things happen at Cal City where Van still does it the "old fashioned way" and ya get a bunch of non-local-GPS-cripple-green-light-lemmings on the plane from out of town... ... anyway The UN-official Line on Spotting: 1. Spotting is a thankless job. Only if you do it wrong. Quote2. Spotting is as much of an "art" involving voodoo, chicken bones and dried frogs & a rabbits foot as it is a science. Only if you know nothing about art, science or spotting. Quote3. You're only as good as your last spot. If you know what you are doing, your last spot was good. You are NO BETTER than your last spot. Quote4. You'll never get thanks for the 100s of good spots you may call, but you'll hear about the odd bad ones until the day you die. Monumentally bad spots usually entail more than bad luck. Usually bad judgment is involved. Quote7. Those who complain often and most about "your bad spot" will never come spot the next load themselves. I do not tend to get complaints, so I do not know first hand. If someone else spots badly, I know it before I get to the door, since I have been watching our ground track out the window all the way to altitude. If a jump pilot can not spot, I am happy to provide detailed instruction in the subject - to include a working demonstration. Quote6. You (1A) can spot a stick of jumpers out an Otter... with groups all the way through 1F... each group after you can take 30+ seconds in the door... and somehow its still your fault that groups 1E & 1F all landed out because somehow you got back into the plane, prevented them from looking down, the airplane would have exploded if they called for a go-around and you made them jump out even after you were long gone... (see all the above). Good communication beforehand can help avoid both the problem and its aftereffects. Agreeing before boarding the airplane to, say, 8 seconds between group exits can lead to later groups getting out in a timely manner. If people insist on taking their sweet time in the door, I am happy to arrange the exit order so that they go last. If the people ahead of me have taken more time than will allow for a good spot, I will open high to make it back, land off, or ask for a go-around - depending on where I am and in what kind of mood I am. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #34 October 25, 2006 QuoteIn my opinion the official line on spotting can be found here http://www.iit.edu/~ugcol/separation.zip Hardly "official", but thanks anyway... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,594 #35 October 26, 2006 Quote[sarcasm]... jumping on them and giving them grief for a bad spot!!??! bet he's never once complimented them on their many good spots!! ... what a butt-hole!! [/sarcasam] Jesus, you're a difficult fucker to please aren't youDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #36 October 26, 2006 QuoteQuote[sarcasm]... jumping on them and giving them grief for a bad spot!!??! bet he's never once complimented them on their many good spots!! ... what a butt-hole!! [/sarcasam] Jesus, you're a difficult fucker to please aren't you Not really... just don't bitch about the spot... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #37 October 26, 2006 Quotesince I have been watching our ground track out the window all the way to altitude. Seriously, I have no idea how this can help apart from giving you a rough estimate +/- 20 kts of the wind speed. That is assuming you can estimate it 100% accurately from looking at the ground track, which I doubt. Or do you have another eye of the airspeed and climb rate? Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 236 #38 October 26, 2006 QuoteQuotesince I have been watching our ground track out the window all the way to altitude. Seriously, I have no idea how this can help apart from giving you a rough estimate +/- 20 kts of the wind speed. That is assuming you can estimate it 100% accurately from looking at the ground track, which I doubt. Or do you have another eye of the airspeed and climb rate? I already know where the spot is before boarding the airplane. I know what I should see below me if I expect to get back. Paying attention to where I am in the air is just good practice, ensuring that when I exit I am where I want to be. Keeping an eye on the ground track enroute to altitude tells me where we are at any time. I have exited with a less than optimal spot when the starboard engine quit working and the pilot said "GET OUT OF MY AIRPLANE!" Knowing where we were at that time was very useful. We even turned a few points before opening and landing way, way off. If the green light comes on and I know we are a couple of miles short (or have gone past the DZ, as the case may be), I am a whole lot less likely to summarily exit if I am aware of that beforehand. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #39 October 26, 2006 Ahhh.. O.K. , I understand. Sometimes when I am looking out of our aircraft I am thinking., "I hope the engines don't quit now!". Nothing but tree's below us. There again, at least I know there's no time to turn points. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #40 October 26, 2006 Cool, well, I think I learned some stuff here in this thread, I will look forward to the training! Is October a grumpy month for everyone? Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #41 October 30, 2006 Quote... Is October a grumpy month for everyone? No, it just happens every 28 days. Learn to spot, guy. One of these days you'll be glad you did.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilatus_p 0 #42 November 3, 2006 aye aye skipper Thanks all for input! Over and out Rosshttp://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
