Guest #1 January 29, 2007 From the Strategy Page: January 28, 2007: The Top 10 Myths of the Iraq War in no particular order. There are more, but ten is a manageable number. 1-No Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). Several hundred chemical weapons were found, and Saddam had all his WMD scientists and technicians ready. Just end the sanctions and add money, and the weapons would be back in production within a year. At the time of the invasion, all intelligence agencies, world-wide, believed Saddam still had a functioning WMD program. Saddam had shut them down because of the cost, but created the illusion that the program was still operating in order to fool the Iranians. The Iranians wanted revenge on Saddam because of the Iraq invasion of Iran in 1980, and the eight year war that followed. 2-The 2003 Invasion was Illegal. Only according to some in the UN. By that standard, the invasion of Kosovo and bombing of Serbia in 1999 was also illegal. Saddam was already at war with the U.S. and Britain, because Iraq had not carried out the terms of the 1991 ceasefire, and was trying to shoot down coalition aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone. 3-Sanctions were working. The sanctions worked for Saddam, not for Iraq. Saddam used the sanctions as an excuse to punish the Shia majority for their 1991 uprising, and help prevent a new one. The "Oil For Food" program was corrupted with the help of bribed UN officials, and mass media outlets that believed Iraqi propaganda. Saddam was waiting out the sanctions, and bribing France, Russia and China, with promises of oil contracts and debt repayments, to convince the UN to lift the sanctions. 4-Overthrowing Saddam Only Helped Iran. Of course, and this was supposed to make Iran more approachable and open to negotiations. With the Iraqi "threat" gone, it was believed that Iran might lose its radical ways and behave. Iran got worse as a supporter of terrorism and developer of WMD. Irans clerical dictatorship did not want a democracy next door. The ancient struggle between the Iranians and Arabs was brought to the surface, and the UN became more active in dealing with problems caused by pro-terrorist government of Iran. As a result of this, the Iranian police state has faced more internal dissent. From inside Iran, Iraq does not look like an Iranian victory. 5-The Invasion Was a Failure. Saddam's police state was overthrown and a democracy established, which was the objective of the operation. Peace did not ensue because Saddam's supporters, the Sunni Arab minority, were not willing to deal with majority rule, and war crimes trials. A terror campaign followed. Few expected the Sunni Arabs to be so stupid. There's a lesson to be learned there. 6-The Invasion Helped Al Qaeda. Compared to what? Al Qaeda was a growing movement before 2003, and before 2001. But after the Iraq invasion, and especially the Sunni Arab terrorism, al Qaeda fell in popularity throughout the Moslem world. Arab countries cracked down on al Qaeda operations more than ever before. Without the Iraq invasion, al Qaeda would still have safe havens all over the Arab world. 7-Iraq Is In A State of Civil War. Then so was Britain when the IRA was active, and so is Spain today because ETA is still active. Both IRA and ETA are terrorist organizations based on ethnic identity. India also has tribal separatist rebels who are quite active. That's not considered a civil war. This is all about partisans playing with labels for political ends, not accurately describing a terror campaign. 8-Iraqis Were Better Off Under Saddam. Most Iraqis disagree. Check election results and opinion polls. Reporters tend to ask Iraqi Sunni Arabs this question, but they were the only ones who benefited from Saddams rule. 9-The Iraq War Caused Islamic Terrorism to Increase in Europe. The Moslem unrest in Europe was there before 2001, and 2003. Interviews of Islamic radicals in Europe reveals that the hatred is not motivated by Iraq, but by daily encounters with hostile natives. Blaming Islamic terrorism on Iraq is another attempt to avoid dealing with a homegrown problem. 10- The War in Iraq is Lost. By what measure? Saddam and his Baath party are out of power. There is a democratically elected government. Part of the Sunni Arab minority continues to support terror attacks, in an attempt to restore the Sunni Arab dictatorship. In response, extremist Shia Arabs formed vigilante death squads to expel all Sunni Arabs. Given the history of democracy in the Middle East, Iraq is working through its problems. Otherwise, one is to believe that the Arabs are incapable of democracy and only a tyrant like Saddam can make Iraqi "work." If democracy were easy, the Arab states would all have it. There are problems, and solutions have to be found and implemented. That takes time, but Americans have, since the 18th century, grown weary of wars after three years. If the war goes on longer, the politicians have to scramble to survive the bad press and opinion polls. Opposition politicians take advantage of the situation, but this has nothing to do with Iraq, and everything to do with local politics in the United States. mh ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #2 January 29, 2007 11. Killing thousands and thousands of innocent people sets them free....... P.S Do you have the same Optician as the Monkey Man? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #3 January 29, 2007 I am so glad you believe in sugar coating things....perhaps that next contract should be to Balad since everything is going so well there. I know some people who have been there.. want a hookup??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #4 January 29, 2007 Nicely done. And it brought out the expected insults from the expected people rather quickly. It is interesting to see the reactions when detail and fact are used against imotional irrational thought processes. I also find it interesting that those against the war wish to blame the deaths on the US instead of the Iranians and Sirans et al. You know, those that actually pull the trigger or set off the bombs. Do you have the next 10 ready to go? I would like to see them spelled out as well as you did the first 10 here.....and to view the next round of PAs"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #5 January 29, 2007 Quote Do you have the next 10 ready to go? I would like to see them spelled out as well as you did the first 10 here.....and to view the next round of PAs They're not his. This is the second copy I've gotten in the last half hour. I'm trying to decide if this is simply a case of rosey revisionism or if maybe it's a test piece launched onto the net by Bush's lawyers to work out their defense in case they have to make a flight to the Hague P.S. Careful with how "facts" are used. Yes, Iraq did fire on the US military in the no fly zones. But the no fly zones were an incursion into soverign Iraqi airspace as a "humanitarian" action by the US and Britain. The UN never officially recognized them and they are a part of no security council resolution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #6 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuote Do you have the next 10 ready to go? I would like to see them spelled out as well as you did the first 10 here.....and to view the next round of PAs They're not his. This is the second copy I've gotten in the last half hour. I'm trying to decide if this is simply a case of rosey revisionism or if maybe it's a test piece launched onto the net by Bush's lawyers to work out their defense in case they have to make a flight to the Hague P.S. Careful with how "facts" are used. Yes, Iraq did fire on the US military in the no fly zones. But the no fly zones were an incursion into soverign Iraqi airspace as a "humanitarian" action by the US and Britain. The UN never officially recognized them and they are a part of no security council resolution. Not his? Ok, I guess that makes them all false then You never reposted or passed anything on? Edited to add. I don't give a squirt of piss about the UN It is a corupt organization at best and I give it the benefit of the doubt doing that"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #7 January 29, 2007 Quote 7-Iraq Is In A State of Civil War. Then so was Britain when the IRA was active, and so is Spain today because ETA is still active. Both IRA and ETA are terrorist organizations based on ethnic identity. India also has tribal separatist rebels who are quite active. That's not considered a civil war. This is all about partisans playing with labels for political ends, not accurately describing a terror campaign.This made me laugh aloud. Do you really think that the IRA's terrorism, that killed 3000 over 30 years, is even remotely comparable to the slaughter currently taking place in Iraq and running at something in the region of 30,000 a year? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #8 January 29, 2007 Quote5-The Invasion Was a Failure. Saddam's police state was overthrown and a democracy established, which was the objective of the operation. Peace did not ensue because Saddam's supporters, the Sunni Arab minority, were not willing to deal with majority rule, and war crimes trials. A terror campaign followed. Few expected the Sunni Arabs to be so stupid. There's a lesson to be learned there. I see. So what, in your opinion, is the lesson to be learned there? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 January 29, 2007 QuoteThis made me laugh aloud. you have a strange sense of humor Scrubs makes me laugh out loud. Some comedians and a few funny friends can. Terrorism doesn't really do it for me, though. I'll try harder. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #10 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteThis made me laugh aloud. you have a strange sense of humor Scrubs makes me laugh out loud. Some comedians and a few funny friends can. Terrorism doesn't really do it for me, though. I'll try harder.You think I'm laughing about terrorism? I think you miscomprehend. I'm much more tickled by the blatant and shameless intellectual dishonesty of whoever tried to pass that comparison off as 'myth busting'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #11 January 29, 2007 Quote Edited to add. I don't give a squirt of piss about the UN It is a corupt organization at best and I give it the benefit of the doubt doing that Kind of a love/hate relationship huh? They suck when they don't want to go along with us because global interests don't support us but they're kinda nice to have around to clean up our messes. I really don't know why people have a beef with the UN. I mean they're a corrupt, pseudo-democratic institution and our government is a corrupt, pseudo-democratic institution. What's not to love? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #12 January 29, 2007 >1-No Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD). There were no WMD's. Every single investigator we sent over there agrees. Sorry. That's not opinion; that's reality intruding on what was once a neo-con dream. >3-Sanctions were working. The sanctions were officially implemented to stop his WMD program; that worked. We also hoped that it would remove him from power; that part didn't. >5-The Invasion Was a Failure. It got Saddam; in that way it was a success. Other goals: Find his WMD's - failure. Liberate the Iraqis from death squads, mass graves and torture chambers - failure. Protect the WMD fixin's we knew about - failure. Create a stable democracy in the middle east - failure. >6-The Invasion Helped Al Qaeda. Compared to what? Exactly; that's the question. It's stronger today. If we had concentrated on getting Bin Laden instead of pulling troops out for Iraq, would Al Qaeda have been weakened? Most likely. If we had all those hundreds of billions for covert operations to ferret out Al Qaeda cells in the US and other countries, would they have been weakened? Almost certainly. Instead, it is growing stronger and is pulling off attacks against western targets. We have failed in our efforts to destroy them. That's not to say that we will not someday succeed. To do that, we need the sort of manpower and money that we are currently throwing away in Iraq. >10- The War in Iraq is Lost. It's about as "lost" as Vietnam was. That is to say, we can keep throwing cannon fodder at it for as long as we like. The solution to Iraq will be found in a conference room, not on a battlefield - despite what the clueless "anything other than complete and absolute WWII-style victory is defeat" types claim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 January 29, 2007 QuoteYou think I'm laughing about terrorism? I think you miscomprehend.. my bad, my english isn't so eloquent yet. the phrase and the way you use it is confusing. I hope to learn more as I go. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #14 January 29, 2007 QuoteRe: [rushmc] The Top Ten Myths of the Iraq War - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited to add. I don't give a squirt of piss about the UN It is a corupt organization at best and I give it the benefit of the doubt doing that -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kind of a love/hate relationship huh? They suck when they don't want to go along with us because global interests don't support us but they're kinda nice to have around to clean up our messes. I really don't know why people have a beef with the UN. I mean they're a corrupt, pseudo-democratic institution and our government is a corrupt, pseudo-democratic institution. What's not to love? What I really love is how they use the fact that SADAAM.....did not comply with UN RESOLUTIONS.. as a reason we went to war.....SMARMY at best wouldnt you say Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #15 January 29, 2007 QuoteSMARMY at best wouldnt you say I'm flattered. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #16 January 29, 2007 QuoteWhat I really love is how they use the fact that SADAAM.....did not comply with UN RESOLUTIONS.. as a reason we went to war.....SMARMY at best wouldnt you say Yup...sucks when you break the conditions of the cease-fire over and over again, doesn't it?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #17 January 29, 2007 The Top Ten Myths Facts of the Iraq War Fixed it for ya. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #18 January 29, 2007 You wish!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #19 January 29, 2007 QuoteNicely done. And it brought out the expected insults from the expected people rather quickly. It is interesting to see the reactions when detail and fact are used against imotional irrational thought processes. It consists of totally dishonest misrepresentations, skewed irrationally to appeal to emotions, and is not even worthy of a point by point response. Billvon still hit a couple of them though, so see those. Also, if the WMD programs were shut down to lack of money, doesn't that mean the sanctions were working? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #20 January 29, 2007 I thought since that is the proper right wing buzz word now for being a hypocrital bastage... that I would use it in its PROPER CONTEXT for once. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #22 January 29, 2007 smarm·y (smär'mē) Pronunciation Key adj. smarm·i·er, smarm·i·est Hypocritically, complacently, or effusively earnest; unctuous. See Synonyms at unctuous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #23 January 29, 2007 Want to buy a bridge?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #24 January 29, 2007 QuoteCareful with how "facts" are used. Yes, Iraq did fire on the US military in the no fly zones. But the no fly zones were an incursion into soverign Iraqi airspace as a "humanitarian" action by the US and Britain. The UN never officially recognized them and they are a part of no security council resolution. I say tough shit for Saddam. I think that one of the benefit of winning a war so decisively as we did, is that we can impose new conditions as needed. I think Bush-41 should have had the balls to let our planes shoot down the helicopters that were killing so many after the cease fire, but it wasn't part of the agreement, so he hesitated. That was wrong. To MH: Thank you for posting this. Seems to be a definite lack of criticism that has any substance to it, instead there is just a lot of appealing to emotions.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #25 January 29, 2007 It's difficult not to get emotional when innocent men, women and kids are slaughtered for no sensibly defined reasons. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites