Peter_Phile 0 #201 January 30, 2007 i can't stay arguing all night, i'm off to brush my teeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #202 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote If there had never been rocks, Cain would never have killed Abel...is that your argument?? I'm still waiting on those stats showing the violent crime rate rising and staying up when a state enacts concealed carry laws... all those extra handguns on the street HAVE to make things more violent per your logic. Avoiding the question again. PS violent crime WAS up in CCW states 2005 and first 6 months of 2006. Violent crime was down REGARDLESS of CCW status 2000-2004, across the USA. I'm not avoiding your question - crime stats do show fluctuation from year to year, that's a given and nobody have ever disputed that. YOU, however, have never answered the question about violent crimes decreasing dramatically for concealed carry states, and staying well below their prior levels - if it was the guns, as you like to infer, crimes should have gone UP and stayed up...but they haven't. Violent crime also went down in NON CCW states over the same time frame, and is UP in both CCW and non CCW states over the last 18 months, so there's NO evidence that CCW affects anything. Your question is meaningless. Gun homicides and gun related accidental fatalities in the US, however, remain well above those in other western industrialized nations although other crimes (both violent and non-violent) are at much the same level.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #203 January 30, 2007 Quoteyes, stop proving to us brits that americans can't tell jokes I was trying to be obtuse for your sake. It's my understanding that Brits don't get the normal american dry, wry wit. (but I still prefer the fish dance over political mockery) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #204 January 30, 2007 QuoteViolent crime also went down in NON CCW states over the same time frame, and is UP in both CCW and non CCW states over the last 18 months, so there's NO evidence that CCW affects anything. Your question is meaningless. I guess that depends if the rates of change were the same or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #205 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteViolent crime also went down in NON CCW states over the same time frame, and is UP in both CCW and non CCW states over the last 18 months, so there's NO evidence that CCW affects anything. Your question is meaningless. I guess that depends if the rates of change were the same or not. Well, tell us, then.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #206 January 30, 2007 Quote Remember, its very rare to accidently drown in the bath, accidently stab yourself repeatedly to death, beat yourself to death with a baseball bat. Its much easier to accidently discharge a firearm hurting yourself or some other innocent party Are you so sure of this? People do manage to drown and to cut off fingers and worse using knives and power tools. For the hundreds of millions of guns, very few seem to accidently kill their owners. Generally there is actual intent involved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #207 January 30, 2007 Quoteok, it's a direct question at you... is it a price worth paying (the odd person getting killed by a gun that would have been taken out of circulation otherwise) just so that you can keep your gun? i don't suppose for one minute you'll answer this question directly In response to your repeated remarks (to the wrong people) that I hadn't answered yet...if you post at 5am localtime, don't expect a quick response. As it is, unless you're willing to pay me 50 quid/hr, I'm going to answer at my leisure. But in answer to your question - yes. The current 'odd number of people' killed is justified by the larger number who are saved. And this answer accepts the fact that the killers will be armed, so the victims should have equal opportunity. Put more simply, you offer a false choice. Giving up my arms will improve no one else's safety. No one will live that otherwise wouldn't have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #208 January 31, 2007 Quotei can't stay arguing all night, i'm off to brush my teeth Yank!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #209 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteok, it's a direct question at you... is it a price worth paying (the odd person getting killed by a gun that would have been taken out of circulation otherwise) just so that you can keep your gun? i don't suppose for one minute you'll answer this question directly In response to your repeated remarks (to the wrong people) that I hadn't answered yet...if you post at 5am localtime, don't expect a quick response. As it is, unless you're willing to pay me 50 quid/hr, I'm going to answer at my leisure. But in answer to your question - yes. The current 'odd number of people' killed is justified by the larger number who are saved. And this answer accepts the fact that the killers will be armed, so the victims should have equal opportunity. Put more simply, you offer a false choice. Giving up my arms will improve no one else's safety. No one will live that otherwise wouldn't have. The "larger number who are saved" has no basis in actual fact. Homicide statistics suggest that nations with large numbers of handguns in circulation have more homicides.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #210 January 31, 2007 QuoteHomicide statistics suggest that nations with large numbers of handguns in circulation have more homicides. Well, that certainly clears up the massacre in Rwanda... QuoteThe "larger number who are saved" has no basis in actual fact. Really? NIJ supports a rough number of 80k (or so) defensive gun uses per year. Other surveys suggest higher numbers. You can also look at the rates of "hot burglaries", where the US has an appreciably lower number (around 1/3 the rate, as I recall). Eyewitness interviews with convicted felons support the deterrent factor of guns used for defense.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #211 January 31, 2007 QuoteThe "larger number who are saved" has no basis in actual fact. No more so than the actual number of people killed by secondhand smoke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #212 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteHomicide statistics suggest that nations with large numbers of handguns in circulation have more homicides. Well, that certainly clears up the massacre in Rwanda... QuoteThe "larger number who are saved" has no basis in actual fact. Really? NIJ supports a rough number of 80k (or so) defensive gun uses per year. Other surveys suggest higher numbers. You can also look at the rates of "hot burglaries", where the US has an appreciably lower number (around 1/3 the rate, as I recall). Eyewitness interviews with convicted felons support the deterrent factor of guns used for defense. That does not indicate any net saving of lives (which was the issue). By and large burglars and muggers don't wantonly kill their victims if they are unarmed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #213 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteHomicide statistics suggest that nations with large numbers of handguns in circulation have more homicides. Well, that certainly clears up the massacre in Rwanda... QuoteThe "larger number who are saved" has no basis in actual fact. Really? NIJ supports a rough number of 80k (or so) defensive gun uses per year. Other surveys suggest higher numbers. You can also look at the rates of "hot burglaries", where the US has an appreciably lower number (around 1/3 the rate, as I recall). Eyewitness interviews with convicted felons support the deterrent factor of guns used for defense. That does not indicate any net saving of lives (which was the issue). By and large burglars and muggers don't wantonly kill their victims if they are unarmed. By and large, they don't... but do you REALLY want your only option in the matter to be the good will of the criminal? In regards to the saving of lives, you also can't prove someone wouldn't have been killed if a gun wasn't available.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #214 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuotei can't stay arguing all night, i'm off to brush my teeth Yank! That is just to fucking funny!!!! Jamille you crack me up!!! They french think "I have to take a shower" is a lame way of saying "I don't want to talk anymore" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #215 January 31, 2007 QuoteThey french think "I have to take a shower" is a lame way of saying "I don't want to talk anymore" but that's just because no one really believes they are actually going to take that shower ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #216 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHomicide statistics suggest that nations with large numbers of handguns in circulation have more homicides. Well, that certainly clears up the massacre in Rwanda... QuoteThe "larger number who are saved" has no basis in actual fact. Really? NIJ supports a rough number of 80k (or so) defensive gun uses per year. Other surveys suggest higher numbers. You can also look at the rates of "hot burglaries", where the US has an appreciably lower number (around 1/3 the rate, as I recall). Eyewitness interviews with convicted felons support the deterrent factor of guns used for defense. That does not indicate any net saving of lives (which was the issue). By and large burglars and muggers don't wantonly kill their victims if they are unarmed. By and large, they don't... but do you REALLY want your only option in the matter to be the good will of the criminal? In regards to the saving of lives, you also can't prove someone wouldn't have been killed if a gun wasn't available. Well, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US, but homicides are far higher in the US. A very simple FACT that you guys try to brush under the carpet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #217 January 31, 2007 QuoteWell, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US, but homicides are far higher in the US. A very simple FACT that you guys try to brush under the carpet. Where have I brushed it under the carpet - every time you haul out that argument, I counter with the fact that cultural differences between cultures help drive that, not just the availability (or not) of guns.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #218 January 31, 2007 QuoteWell, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US We do? Since when? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #219 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteWell, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US, but homicides are far higher in the US. A very simple FACT that you guys try to brush under the carpet. Where have I brushed it under the carpet - every time you haul out that argument, I counter with the fact that cultural differences between cultures help drive that, not just the availability (or not) of guns. Why would the culture not have the same effect on other violent crimes? Is it possible that it's the GUN culture that's to blame?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #220 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteWell, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US We do? Since when? Data previously posted - look it up.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #221 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuotei can't stay arguing all night, i'm off to brush my teeth Yank! That is just to fucking funny!!!! Jamille you crack me up!!! They french think "I have to take a shower" is a lame way of saying "I don't want to talk anymore" LMAOWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #222 January 31, 2007 Quoteyou also can't prove someone wouldn't have been killed if a gun wasn't available. I always wondered how effective a drive by knifing would be... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #223 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteWell, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US, but homicides are far higher in the US. A very simple FACT that you guys try to brush under the carpet. Where have I brushed it under the carpet - every time you haul out that argument, I counter with the fact that cultural differences between cultures help drive that, not just the availability (or not) of guns. Why would the culture not have the same effect on other violent crimes? Is it possible that it's the GUN culture that's to blame? Show me the stats where those crimes are being committed by otherwise law-abiding persons and you might sway me.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #224 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteyou also can't prove someone wouldn't have been killed if a gun wasn't available. I always wondered how effective a drive by knifing would be... Don't forget Going Postal with a knife, or lying in wait in the Book Depository with a knife. Say, did that serial sniper in DC use a sniper knife with a telecopic sight?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #225 January 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteWell, we know that muggings, burglaries, rapes etc. occur with about the same frequency in UK, Australia and Canada as in US, but homicides are far higher in the US. A very simple FACT that you guys try to brush under the carpet. Where have I brushed it under the carpet - every time you haul out that argument, I counter with the fact that cultural differences between cultures help drive that, not just the availability (or not) of guns. Why would the culture not have the same effect on other violent crimes? Is it possible that it's the GUN culture that's to blame? Show me the stats where those crimes are being committed by otherwise law-abiding persons and you might sway me. Every murderer was once a law abiding individual. Every one. 100%... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
