kallend 2,150 #76 January 27, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd while we're at it, let's compare the number times private citizens used guns to defend themselves against criminals, for those time periods. Nice try. Are you saying that violent crime would be EVEN HIGHER in the USA without guns? Not even John Rich claims that! Besides, whose data would you use? I was just countering one tangential sidebar with another. Well, since you have no actual data, it's about all you could do. You do have a knack for asserting a lie and making it sound plausible. Tsk, tsk. Pretty smarmy. But you don't have any actual data, and JR doesn't assert what you asserted, so where is the lie? I notice you didn't take me up on the offer to compare homicide rates in the US and UK over the last few years (or any period at all). Or we can compare US with Canada or Australia or other countries with similar culture. All things considered, I'd rather be a victim of mugging than of homicide. YMMV.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,596 #77 January 27, 2007 Quote Jesus John, you really don't have a clue what went on in Parliament in 96/97 do you. You are talking utter drivel. You mean it doesn't work the way the Representatives and the Senate do?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #78 January 27, 2007 Quote Most people couldn't kill with their bare hands or stick a knife in someone. Most people are not that way inclined. Most people aren't inclined to kill a dozen people by any means. Got some science beyond 'i think it would be easier to be a psychotic killer with a gun?' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #79 January 27, 2007 QuoteDon't know what it is with you americans (some of you at least) thinking you can tell the rest of the world what you can do, each time you've gone into a country to try and "help" you've right royally fucked it up. You mean how some of your guys keep saying how America should ban guns like you did? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #80 January 27, 2007 Quotemean how some of your guys keep saying how America should ban guns like you did? Where did I say that America should ban guns? Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #81 January 27, 2007 <> I did say that I was seflish and do not consider the loss of privately owned guns as an issue that I'm interested in. I did NOT say that I did not respect the choice of others. There are a lot of potential 'choice wars' and one needs to pick the one that are personally of interest. The aurgument agains the loss of proivately owned guns, as far as the U.K is concerned is lost. I the government decided to try and take my bike aware, I show an interest then. They have decided that smoking in public should go the way of guns.... again not a fight that I'm prepared to have. What I'm saying is that you have to choose your own battles based upon your own terms of reference. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #82 January 27, 2007 Quote<> I did say that I was seflish and do not consider the loss of privately owned guns as an issue that I'm interested in. I did NOT say that I did not respect the choice of others. There are a lot of potential 'choice wars' and one needs to pick the one that are personally of interest. The aurgument agains the loss of proivately owned guns, as far as the U.K is concerned is lost. I the government decided to try and take my bike aware, I show an interest then. They have decided that smoking in public should go the way of guns.... again not a fight that I'm prepared to have. What I'm saying is that you have to choose your own battles based upon your own terms of reference. Your term of reference seems to be: ME ME ME! And to hell with everyone else. I believe that intrusions against personal liberty should be opposed by everyone, whether they affect you personally or not. Otherwise, divided, they will fall. Who do you expect to stand with you when the government comes to ban your bike? You certainly have no right to expect help from the gun owners or the smokers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #83 January 27, 2007 Yeap O.K I I I give up. Lets go and campaign to make Cocaine and other class A drugs legal.. We should after all think of others before our selves. Bye, (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 23 #84 January 27, 2007 QuoteYeap O.K I I I give up. Lets go and campaign to make Cocaine and other class A drugs legal.. We should after all think of others before our selves. Bye, I feel like you missed his point. In the US for example. Smoking is legal. Cigaretts are legal. I hate being around smoke but, even with that said, I feel the only place the gov should be about to do anything about it is in gov owned public places. I do not feel they should be able to tell a bar owner they can not allow smoking because it is property the owner allows the public in to eat or drink. In essance, I feel it is wrong to regulate privatly owned businesses because some busybody wants to go in to this place but doesn't like being around smoke. I aplaud my states Supreme court for saying as much. Now apply this to gun ownership. In the US it is a right spelled out by the constitution. Anybody making the claim that a militia is what is being talkied about better had better to be ready to give up all the other rights as well because individal right has to be interpeted differerntly for someone to support that claim. The major law schools (for the most part) have stated this and is where I learned that fact. To continue, regarless if you want to own a gun, everyone needs to fight for all the rights lest they loose the rest of them too. I do not know what the UK laws state about gun ownership but I do feel it necessary to debate the stats as to what has happened there (since some guns were banned) because the anti gunners (and they did this first) use foreign examples to try and sway people. It only seems right the when facts are wrong or misused, those errors or deceptions (if any) be brought to light."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #85 January 27, 2007 Thanks, I do not believe that I missed Johns' point, it just happens that I don't happen to agree with it, that's all, no biggie. Cheers, (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #86 January 27, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- mean how some of your guys keep saying how America should ban guns like you did? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where did I say that America should ban guns? Sorry If you re-read what I wrote, I did not say YOU. I said, "mean how some of *your guys* keep saying how America should ban guns like you did?" I did not mean to imply you, I meant to imply some of your countrymen. Unless you disagree that some of your countrymen think that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #87 January 27, 2007 QuoteI notice you didn't take me up on the offer to compare homicide rates in the US and UK over the last few years... My oh my, you are very demanding of others. Perhaps you should try responding to requests directed at you, if you expect others to reciprocate with your questions. For example, you're still silent on this one:"And all the while, he ignores the larger trend that has been happening since 1993, in which violent crime dropped significantly for 13 years previously, to a low level that hasn't been seen in over 30 years! The funny thing about this is that kallend doesn't bother to explain how violent crime managed to drop every year for over a decade, even while all those guns were still around..."If the presence of guns causes violent crime, then please explain how this phenomenon could occur. Explain your pet theory. Of course, that would require that you actually do some work and defend what you've written, instead of sitting on the sidelines and throwing rocks at others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #88 January 27, 2007 QuoteParliament CAN introduce such laws such as the ban on weapons. Not that anyone was complaining anyway... except you of course. Your belief that nary a single citizen in England objected to the 1997 gun ban demonstrates how out of touch with reality your views are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #89 January 28, 2007 QuoteQuoteI notice you didn't take me up on the offer to compare homicide rates in the US and UK over the last few years... My oh my, you are very demanding of others. Perhaps you should try responding to requests directed at you, if you expect others to reciprocate with your questions. For example, you're still silent on this one:"And all the while, he ignores the larger trend that has been happening since 1993, in which violent crime dropped significantly for 13 years previously, to a low level that hasn't been seen in over 30 years! The funny thing about this is that kallend doesn't bother to explain how violent crime managed to drop every year for over a decade, even while all those guns were still around..."If the presence of guns causes violent crime, then please explain how this phenomenon could occur. Explain your pet theory. Of course, that would require that you actually do some work and defend what you've written, instead of sitting on the sidelines and throwing rocks at others. I have posted the homicide (the most violent of violent crimes) rates a number of times in the past. The US does not look good compared to nations with similar cultures and most of US homicides are with guns. No matter how you frame it, JR, the US does have a gun homicide problem compared with the rest of the western world.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #90 January 28, 2007 What was Quotelike you did supposed to mean then!!!! Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #91 January 28, 2007 John, interesting stat for you. In our County (The largest policing area in the UK) the last time someone was shot by authorised firearms officers was over 13 years ago. Armed response is provided within 20 minutes of any area. This support has proved to be more than adequate. Interesting how you say gun crime has risen then provide stats of robbery. Robbery is just theft using violence or fear of violence. If I came up to you and said "give me your money or I'll smack you" and you felt in fear that would constitute a robbery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #92 January 28, 2007 QuoteYour belief that nary a single citizen in England objected to the 1997 gun ban demonstrates how out of touch with reality your views are. Can't remember any big (or small for that matter) protests relating to the gun ban in the UK, it's possible that most of the population thought it was a good idea. Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #93 January 28, 2007 He can't provided stats that gun crime has increased within England because it probably dosn't exists, even one of the documents he linked to said "Firearm offences have fallen significantly, by 14% in the year up to September 2006, which amounts to 1,642 fewer incidents." (or perhaps John has a different undetstanding of the words "fallen" and "fewer" than me). Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #94 January 28, 2007 QuoteUpdate from England: It would seem that despite England's 1997 gun confiscation, gun crime still continues to rise... Recent news stories: Quote: "...new figures show a sharp rise in armed robberies - a 10% jump - including a 9% rise in the number of street robberies where guns were used. There was also a rapid increase in the number of times householders were confronted in their own homes by armed criminals. Residential firearms robberies show a 46% leap..." Source: Breitbart Quote: "Robberies in England and Wales rose by 11% between July and September last year, with overall violent crime up 4%..." Source: BBC Quote: "Escalating gun crime in Yorkshire... Gun crime has quadrupled since 1981..." Source: BBC Quote: "...the risk of crime have increased according to the British Crime Survey (BCS)... The survey is widely accepted as the most authoritative and reliable... the risk of crime increased by one per cent from the previous figures to 24 per cent." Source: Manchester.com Yep, thats why I've moved to Belfast Northern Ireland, the IRA have destroyed all the guns and now everyone is happy and in love, Catholics and Prods hug in the streets and rainbows reach from Sandy row to the Falls. When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZJ 0 #95 January 29, 2007 Quote Your belief that nary a single citizen in England objected to the 1997 gun ban demonstrates how out of touch with reality your views are.You accuse him of being out of touch with reality, yet claim Charles Clarke's statement to the House of Commons to be 'just the opinion of one man'? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #96 January 29, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd while we're at it, let's compare the number times private citizens used guns to defend themselves against criminals, for those time periods. Nice try. Are you saying that violent crime would be EVEN HIGHER in the USA without guns? Not even John Rich claims that! Besides, whose data would you use? I was just countering one tangential sidebar with another. Well, since you have no actual data, it's about all you could do. You do have a knack for asserting a lie and making it sound plausible. Tsk, tsk. Pretty smarmy. But you don't have any actual data, and JR doesn't assert what you asserted, so where is the lie? YOU ARE WRONG!!! http://www.guncite.com/kleckandgertztable1.html If you read all of what you wrote, your lie would be pretty obvious. QuoteI notice you didn't take me up on the offer to compare homicide rates in the US and UK over the last few years (or any period at all). Or we can compare US with Canada or Australia or other countries with similar culture. All things considered, I'd rather be a victim of mugging than of homicide. YMMV. Comparing England vs. the US? Total Violent Crime in the US has fallen every year from it's high in 1993 to a record year low in 2002... and then made a new low in 2004. Currently levels are down almost 60 percent from 1993-94 levels! Additionally, the homicide rate in 2004 was down 42% from the 1993 level. The 2004 level matched the 2000 level, which was the lowest level since 1965. Meanwhile, the homicide rate in England and Wales climbed to an all-time high in 2000. Since then it has remained above the pre-2000 all-time high. In other words, the post 2000 low is greater than the pre-2000 high. And yes I know gun violence is higher in the US than in the UK. That doesn't changes the fact that violent crime and homicides are down at historic lows in the US and homicides are up at historic highs in the UK. These findings may seem counterintuitive to some, especially gun control advocates...... but there they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #97 January 29, 2007 QuoteMy oh my, you are very demanding of others. Perhaps you should try responding to requests directed at you, if you expect others to reciprocate with your questions. That's funny coming from you, the person who "demands" answers to his questions, but rarely answers a question asked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #98 January 29, 2007 John answers, it's just that you donn't like the answers he gives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #99 January 29, 2007 I guess THIS has helped. Spin it however you like, US homicide rates are far far higher than any in Western Europe, Canada, or Australia and most of them are with guns. And then there's THIS from the FBI for 2005, and This for the first six months of 2006.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #100 January 29, 2007 QuoteJohn answers, it's just that you donn't like the answers he gives. If you call silence answers, yeah I guess he answers. (I am talking about questions beyond which weapon is best or which ammunition to use.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
